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One hundred percent incorrect, save for the required restraints and fire suppression system. Any time GM runs a car at the track, it's factory spec right down to the air pressure in the tires, alignment, etc.
I just spent five hours putting in a radiator that will actually keep the car cool in my 15 Z06 since you wouldn't and it overheats at the track after 15 minutes of use!
I just spent five hours putting in a radiator that will actually keep the car cool in my 15 Z06 since you wouldn't and it overheats at the track after 15 minutes of use!
Mark, Keep us posted on how the car performs with the new radiator please.
A track car is first and foremost reliable under load. I can't care less what it will do at the Nurburgring while it is proving to be a dud after a few laps when we drive it here in the US. How can we talk about performance without a car that can perform in normal conditions?
We gained a second at the track and lost half the track time with this generation. This is not a move upwards in performance but a lateral one.
Above is the key point that was not addressed by Tadge.
It wouldn't have been a budget buster to offer an option (or install as default) a beefy cooling system that would allow for 20 min of track time in summer weather. Doesn't take GT3 or ACR Viper tech or $$ to meet that basic requirement and the cost could be easily passed on to customers.
Tadge describes a defensible market-based decision based on who actually buys vettes, but it does stink that (unlike dodge, porsche, mazda, etc...) GM decides to leave its track enthusiasts hanging.
Jimmy - Car and Drive magazine must have tested the C6 Z06 at least 12 times over the years, half the reviews said it handled great and the half would say it was twitchy and a handful at the limit. I always wondered why there was such a difference of opinion. Was it just the different driving styles of the reviews or was it something about the cars?
The answer is 3 easy adjustments in order of importance.
1. Have you alignment checked. Cars came from the factory with rear camber set at -1 degree. Setting it to -1.5 degrees will have a big effect of settling down the rear end and will not adversely effect tire wear. The C6 owners manual makes no mention of alignment settings, but the C7 owners manual talks about -2 degrees camber for competitive driving.
2. Get rid of the Goodyear tires. As you mention the handling got better in later years, this practical due to the switch to Michelin tires in 2011.
3. Install a set of DRM shocks.
The C6 seats are not horrible. They are comfortable on long drives, but if you want to track your car they do not provide enough support. Fixed by modifying the seats or replacing them.
The valve train issue is still on going, but thanks to this forum, members are checking their heads and having them fixed when necessary.
Z06 cars are being marketed as track ready cars. If the majority of the buyers of Z06 cars are never going to track them, then they are buying them for the performance and image that the car represents. The C5 Z06 and the C6 Z06 built that image by being "REAL" track ready cars that you could take from the show room to the track and run without issues. The C7 Z06 is destroying the image/reputation of what a Z06 is suppose to be by overheating after only a few laps on the track.
Thank you for a nice, well thought out reply. Let's agree to disagree...
I don't think the C7 Z06 is "destroying" the reputation of the Z06, I think that time "heals all wounds" in this case. The C6 Z06 valvetrain issue is/was a HUGE deal, the C5 Z06 also had overheating issues on the track, the C7 Z06 has it's ISSUE (overheating).
There is NO doubt that the VAST majority of all 3 generations of Z06's WILL NOT be tracked.
I think everything Tadge says makes perfect sense and was the right decision given everything involved. The Z06 (and even the Z51) are not supposed to be and are not marketed as "dedicated track cars" but "track capable street cars". Making that choice is the proper business decision, and the numbers back it up.
However, the one thing I fault him and the development team on are the cooling issues. This includes the Z06 engine, transmissions (including the Z51 A8), and even needing those stupid brake cooling rings on the Z51. If you really are promising a track capable street car then these issues are a serious problem. If solving them increases the cost of the car too much, then make those things an option which only those people that really need them will buy. I'd even accept add-on packages from the parts catalog that the dealer could install, as long as they don't void the warranty.
I'm not even saying that solving these issues is easy, or even possible, but to market the car as a "track ready/capable street car from the factory" then have these issues with no solution, I consider a failure since they haven't delivered what was promised. Perhaps they just shouldn't have promised it since otherwise it is still a great car.
I agree with this. They gave the marketing guys too much latitude in saying the Z06 was the "most track capable Corvette ever". When I read GM's press announcement http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/h.../0113-z06.html it makes me angry. GM should be accountable for making these comments.
Jimmy - Car and Drive magazine must have tested the C6 Z06 at least 12 times over the years, half the reviews said it handled great and the half would say it was twitchy and a handful at the limit. I always wondered why there was such a difference of opinion. Was it just the different driving styles of the reviews or was it something about the cars?
The answer is 3 easy adjustments in order of importance.
1. Have you alignment checked. Cars came from the factory with rear camber set at -1 degree. Setting it to -1.5 degrees will have a big effect of settling down the rear end and will not adversely effect tire wear. The C6 owners manual makes no mention of alignment settings, but the C7 owners manual talks about -2 degrees camber for competitive driving.
2. Get rid of the Goodyear tires. As you mention the handling got better in later years, this practical due to the switch to Michelin tires in 2011.
3. Install a set of DRM shocks.
The C6 seats are not horrible. They are comfortable on long drives, but if you want to track your car they do not provide enough support. Fixed by modifying the seats or replacing them.
The valve train issue is still on going, but thanks to this forum, members are checking their heads and having them fixed when necessary.
Z06 cars are being marketed as track ready cars. If the majority of the buyers of Z06 cars are never going to track them, then they are buying them for the performance and image that the car represents. The C5 Z06 and the C6 Z06 built that image by being "REAL" track ready cars that you could take from the show room to the track and run without issues. The C7 Z06 is destroying the image/reputation of what a Z06 is suppose to be by overheating after only a few laps on the track.
1. The track overheating problems are inexcusable in a car marketed as the "most track capable Corvette ever".
2. I think that lack of budget hurt the development of the Z06, what we all know is that the C7 Z06 HAD to be faster than the C6 Z06 or the number of threads started would make these overheating threads look like child's play. Clearly, with the weight the C7 was going to put on so it could meet new safety, emissions, mpg, and OUR (the customers) demands, the LS7 was not going to do it. I also wish that the C7 Z06 could have been N/A, but I also take Tadge at his word that this was not possible (I am sure because of budget).
So, I hope and trust that the cooling issues will be dealt with so that the "most track capable Corvette ever" will not be an ongoing hollow marketing line (which will become a punch line).
I think everything Tadge says makes perfect sense and was the right decision given everything involved. The Z06 (and even the Z51) are not supposed to be and are not marketed as "dedicated track cars" but "track capable street cars". Making that choice is the proper business decision, and the numbers back it up.
However, the one thing I fault him and the development team on are the cooling issues. This includes the Z06 engine, transmissions (including the Z51 A8), and even needing those stupid brake cooling rings on the Z51. If you really are promising a track capable street car then these issues are a serious problem. If solving them increases the cost of the car too much, then make those things an option which only those people that really need them will buy. I'd even accept add-on packages from the parts catalog that the dealer could install, as long as they don't void the warranty.
I'm not even saying that solving these issues is easy, or even possible, but to market the car as a "track ready/capable street car from the factory" then have these issues with no solution, I consider a failure since they haven't delivered what was promised. Perhaps they just shouldn't have promised it since otherwise it is still a great car.
I've read each of the responses to the original 'letter' submitted by Tadge. This response by Jay Davis is the most balanced but direct of them all. As Jay's response points out, the overheating 'problem' is just that for all constituencies involved...buyers and GM. I'd be fine with an optional, extra cost solution...the cars are such a bargain to begin with. But it occurs to me GM won't go the option route as it would leave all those buyers who may never track their ZO6's with a nevertheless tainted car and GM would be admitting there is a flaw that needs correcting, at least for high performance applications.
Announce a solution or that one is in the works and my order for a 2016 C7.R goes in Monday morning!
We gotta keep it real though...the Z06 looks tremendously better than the Viper. GenV...I'm just not impressed. Had they pushed ahead and designed something wicked, I think people would've been all over that car. The sideview of that car is....
Only I have to say I didn't like about the answer was Tadge stating that the figures shown of people buying "track oriented" Z06's are very low, associating a Z07 and base level interior with a comp seat as the "track" car.
1. It's never been marketed that way.
2. Buying a base car with Z07 would probably result in a hard to sell car due to the fact that your buyer market is going to TRULY fall into the demographics of old, retired and well funded who don't want a base interior. I want a track pack car, but if I bought the Z07 equipped car now, it would be foolish to buy a 1LZ.
3. I'd have to argue that the Viper altogether is a failing car to site as any example. SRT can't sell the cars, production is dismal, etc. On the 911 side I'd certainly argue that the GT3RS isn't as much about sales as it is simple presence and reputation. People talk about the GT3RS, then buy a Carrera...it's the HALO 911. If Corvette did a limited production track monster...the thing would be sold out. Do it for the rep damnit...
In my opinion, to be quite honest, the track car to buy personally would be a total base Z06 altogether. If you buy a 1LZ base, then you've bought the bare necessity and left room for choice of aero. No carbon brakes in Tudor...good pads, good fluid, good cooling and go.
Only I have to say I didn't like about the answer was Tadge stating that the figures shown of people buying "track oriented" Z06's are very low, associating a Z07 and base level interior with a comp seat as the "track" car.
1. It's never been marketed that way.
2. Buying a base car with Z07 would probably result in a hard to sell car due to the fact that your buyer market is going to TRULY fall into the demographics of old, retired and well funded who don't want a base interior. I want a track pack car, but if I bought the Z07 equipped car now, it would be foolish to buy a 1LZ.
3. I'd have to argue that the Viper altogether is a failing car to site as any example. SRT can't sell the cars, production is dismal, etc. On the 911 side I'd certainly argue that the GT3RS isn't as much about sales as it is simple presence and reputation. People talk about the GT3RS, then buy a Carrera...it's the HALO 911. If Corvette did a limited production track monster...the thing would be sold out. Do it for the rep damnit...
In my opinion, to be quite honest, the track car to buy personally would be a total base Z06 altogether. If you buy a 1LZ base, then you've bought the bare necessity and left room for choice of aero. No carbon brakes in Tudor...good pads, good fluid, good cooling and go.
1) N/A high power seems to be dead due to regulations per Tadge. Take him at his word on that, or look what other MFGs are also doing. Fords new GT will be a six with twin turbines.. look to their truck line and it is even moving to 6 cylinder turbines. Big 8s, N/A are dead near term.
After market is stepping up with improved cooling and might of course lead to what GM incorporates in newer versions of this Z06.
I would expect the first iteration , in its first six months on the road to have such problems. If this is the only real major issue(besides OP) and some computer clinches in this platform, then we are all lucky. Note 2016s have a faster Touch screen computer and software downloads are also coming.
I know if you are racing this car, the cooling is really major, and I'm betting we might even see problems with 100 degree weather and 100% humidity on the street in traffic(a past problem with some of my Vettes) . And it looks like under 3K to fix this problem however in the after market... yes much better if it came from the factory correct, which would likely add under $1,000, maybe just $500! We all know pioneers get the arrows...
The car handles great on the tracks, by every report. I don't know who these idiots are that think it does not handle on a track, when its times are faster than any other Vett and you don't have to be Miri or Randy Probst to get great times.
What's with these guys that stated how fast it runs the Ring does not make it a good track car nonsense... well OK its also running really well on a dozen other tracks with times that seem to be beating everything else but million dollar cars... one problem ... cooling and perhaps a bit of top end on very long straights due to passive aero. However if it gets a really great time at the Ring, then that is not that much of a factor... other than adjusting are for a given track...
The cars it is running against with their wetted weights and honest weights when owners have actually measured, turn out to be in the same ball park now.... McLaren and Ferrari both caught cheating on real world weights by several hundred pounds by their owners on cars they paid close to a million on.
40% stiffer, and having to handle much more down force, then the additional safety requirements, and all that nice soft stuff inside add weight and in my case the cheapest way for the car to lose weight , is for me to lose about 50lbs... LOL..
I would say the glass is not just half full, but 3/4s full. For 3K, it looks like even the first version can get almost full....
I'd be fine with an optional, extra cost solution...the cars are such a bargain to begin with. But it occurs to me GM won't go the option route as it would leave all those buyers who may never track their ZO6's with a nevertheless tainted car and GM would be admitting there is a flaw that needs correcting, at least for high performance applications.
I am not an expert on all the EPA regulations, but I believe having a different optional cooling system would require a separate 50,000 mile EPA compliance verification on the option.
Informative response and classy at the same time despite the loaded question. He's not the evil monster some have tried to make him out to be.
Originally Posted by UniqueDoug
I'm sure this has been covered in other sections but is there an "easy" aftermarket fix for better cooling?
Tadge did a great job of responding and telling it like it is! Our “young boy races” are getting soft! I’ve been a hot rodder for over 50 years, yep I’m old but not of mind! I was 46 when I bought my 1st car with air-conditioning, an ’88 Vette! My black Dodge Colt Turbo with wider, larger diameter wheels, Pirelli tires and performance exhaust, Turbo run on oiler, etc was just too hot when I moved to the Sunny South! I would never think of having air conditioning in my 1st car a '41 Ford Coupe I put an Olds engine in or my modified Corvair, Datsun 260Z with long tube headers, modified Hitachi SU carbs, performance exhaust or my V8 CJ5 Renegade with headers that I cut holes in the inner fender wells to install and straight through mufflers that exited just in front of the rear wheel. And I suffered the Jeep with the first All-Terrain large radials available inside the fenders and didn't have them sticking out like I see running around today!
Point is, if I was going to track the car or race and wanted it to handle better, (which I would because I would want to win) I’d strip out all the carpeting, the many speaks and radio, get a pair of light weight seats from Jegs, take out the air-conditioning compressor, condenser and evaporator and some other non functional items.
As UniqueDoug noted, I'd buy a bigger cooling rad for whatever was getting hot! Did that for my current ProStreet Rod! That’s what aftermarket folks are for and creativity is all about! Should also get a set of light wheels and some reel racing rubber. Some may like the mag shocks but I’d get a set of coil overs so I could fine tune at the track. After the long tube headers and performance exhaust I’d get a tune from someone who knew what they were doing. Enough bench racing!
I would say this to Tadge: Fix the cooling problem and all the other bitching will take care of itself.
I'll soon be receiving the 1LZ Z06/Z07 ordered with a view to replacing my 2011 Porsche Boxster Spyder in high performance driver instruction at our local circuit - a car that can be driven 20 minutes from my house to the circuit and for 20 minutes at a time on the track. If the Z06 overheats it is not "the most track capable Corvette ever", and GM has been economical with the truth. In view of GM's ignition switch woes and other liability problems, one cannot blame Tadge for choosing his words carefully.
If a stock Z06/Z07 can get around the Nürburgring Nordschleife in less than 7:30 for two consecutive laps in summer weather, then "alles gute". I've competed on the Nordschleife and believe it a valid test of proper high performance cars.
...Fords ... is even moving to 6 cylinder turbines. Big 8s, N/A are dead near term....
I like Ford trucks but I would definitely not look at their V6 Turbos as heralding the death of the V8. I know several contractors with Eco Boost F150's in their fleets that are telling me they aren't living up to the hype...particularly in terms of fuel economy.
We gotta keep it real though...the Z06 looks tremendously better than the Viper. GenV...I'm just not impressed. Had they pushed ahead and designed something wicked, I think people would've been all over that car. The sideview of that car is....
Lemme guess you probably love the front view though.
05-30-2015, 09:19 PM
Well said IMO.
