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As much as so many guys around here loved to hate the GS C6 model when it came out, it really was/is the best C6 platform to start with for a car that will be modified. Better looks, wider tires, stronger drivetrain, bigger brakes, and an engine that is FI friendly and much cheaper to replace/repair is what made the C6 GS so great for guys like me. I'd love a C7 GS for those same reasons.
That said, I don't really see GM going for it any time soon on the C7. Sales are just so good, and I don't really see it increasing sales numbers. I'd think it would take away from regular Stingray and Z06 sales, but not necessarily result in more. Buy hey, I'm not a marketing guy. What do I know?
The grand sport C6 is certainly an option to consider as a modding platform...same as I said for the C7. If they'd build it for the enthusiast, I think people would be into it. Build that like the C5Z was though...manual only, shave some weight...make it an enthusiast car.
I think we will see the grand sport with a hotted up LT1 with around 525 hp and a wide body like the z06 but without the black plastic front lip extensions..
I think the tires and wheels will be sized to fit under the fenders without those extensions...
I believe the hotted up LT1 with about 525 hp will also power the 6th gen z28 to compete with the GT350.
You've just described what won't be happening...525 in a 6.2 liter EPA cert and non guzzler taxed...very doubtful. Tadge already claimed they made efforts towards a big cube engine and it couldn't pull the numbers they needed to make it legal.
The dream could be the resurrection of an "LT5" badass, but that's gonna be mega money..maybe that's an idea for this supposed mid engine wonder car....who knows. I think it's reasonable a grandsport could surface...stg1 z06 body, and maybe a power bumped LT1...475-485hp. I'd be for it.
The LT1 torque and power curve matches the LS7 to 4500 rpm I believe. I remember hearing rumors of 500 hp from Jim Hall before the c7 release.
You might be right about the 480 hp range due to fuel efficiency requirements but a few years have passed and new ideas may have surfaced.
I'd be interested @480 hp although it is kind of close to the 460 we are presently seeing and the idea of coming close to the ford flat plane crank power output of 525 might be a motivator for gm to find even a few ponies more for a z28 competitor that would share its power train with a c7 grand sport.
We are all just guessing at this point so I guess we will have to wait and see.
Corvette continued strong sales will need to be maintained and the grand sport did quite the trick for the long running c6 so you never know.
The torque curve has a lot to do with the variable cam timing...that's the key to that. The direct injection also allow you some volumetric efficiency gains, and you can push compression a bit. The heads are a huge step forward also. It's well known the LT1 can make 525, but from a federal legalized and EPA certified perspective its doubtful, based upon what I've been told by guys involved.
When discussing the Ford engine, you're looking at an entirely different architecture. As a person who built a lot of japanese high output stuff for years (see 250hp-450hp/liter common), I see a lot of that design approach in the ford flat plane engine. It's basically the opposite approach that GM is using and both really have merit because GM has done an incredible job with the LSx and LTx lineup.
Fact is though, Fords recipe is really, dare I say, the pinnacle approach. It's the kind of core architecture that has been dominant for decades in the highest levels of racing. Overhead cams, pentroof combustion chamber, 4 valves/cyl, internal geometry that keeps piston speeds manageable and allows the motor to rev higher (sacrifice torque for hp, recover it with cam timing trickery, intake mani design). Add in variable cam timing, which has been proven for decades, combined with optimal tuning (flat plane scavening, etc) and there you go.
The V8 loving masses can talk about "ricers" all they want, but Honda has utilized these technologies (using that word loosely because it's such a dated concept at this point) for decades and those motors flow a TON of air. Honda was making 100hp/liter engines in 1990. There's a reason I was making 900whp with a 2.0 liter. Honda engines, developed through years of racing, are amazing. Variable cam timing, variable valve lift, variable intake runners, even the damn block castings are great, etc.
When you look at the LT1 and look at the flat plane Ford, like I said...it's like comparing donuts to pizza...both are damn good, but entirely different. Ford's step in this direction is REALLY interesting because it kind of hints at a European flavor...they're out at the Ring...they are making that same global move. As to where GM is sticking with that American V8 sound for global appeal.
End of the day though, GM has pushed these LT's pretty far. Pushrods and hydraulic lifters just aren't compatible with high rpm/hp producing motors, from a mass production/warranty included perspective...it's simply a lot of mass to spin and actuate quickly. I hate to say, but with the direction the EPA is going, and federal mandates, I feel like the pushrod motor is backing itself into a corner. If the GM engineers keep coming up with tricks it'll survive but...I don't know. It's such a fantastically compact powerhouse, that's the beauty of it.
Time will tell...I'm not on the inside looking at data, getting paid to play with computer models and what not. Where there is a will (and an *** ton of cash), there is a way.
The thing about the Corvette engine is its abundant low end power and it's excellent packaging. I'd hate to lose the Corvette's low hood, low center of gravity and driver friendly low end grunt.
We have a 2015.5 Volvo XC60 with the 302 hp supercharged & turbo charged 2 liter engine. It has power everywhere. I'm beginning to wonder if a smaller V8 with forced induction might be a solution for the Corvette.
The thing about the Corvette engine is its abundant low end power and it's excellent packaging. I'd hate to lose the Corvette's low hood, low center of gravity and driver friendly low end grunt.
We have a 2015.5 Volvo XC60 with the 302 hp supercharged & turbo charged 2 liter engine. It has power everywhere. I'm beginning to wonder if a smaller V8 with forced induction might be a solution for the Corvette.
I think you may be on to something, I could see a 500+ hp Grand sport. It would definitely add to Corvette sales, hmm? maybe a 5.0 or 5.3 low compression engine with a supercharger would easily be capable of 525 hp perfect for a new c7 Grand Sport model? Probably 30+mpg highway too!
I think a slight tune and cam change can lead the LT1 to 500 plus hp and still be emissions compliant.
I'm not sure if fords gt350 5.2 liter has a gas guzzler tax but the cost savings of building a 500 plus hp LT1 engine would still be less than the cost of building the flat plane crank voodoo engine.
It ll make for a great sixth gen camaro z28 power plant and of course a power plant for a grand sport corvette.
I'd suggest gm will eventually launch a z28 camaro to equal the gt350 NA powerplant.
I believe the LT4 will make it to a camaro ZL1.
It ll be an exciting evolution of the corvette and camaro brands.
I'm a big fan of the GS concept. To put a different take on the question of whether a GS is really necessary, it's my opinion that many potential GS buyers are not going to buy a Stingray because the are waiting for a GS.
I think the ZO6 is terrific but I can't justify the money and it's going to be some time before affordable used (I'm more of a new car buyer anyway) ones are available and I'm not sure I'd want an early one under any circumstances.
The Z51 Stingray is an exceptional car but call me shallow if you want, I gotta have a wide body with the big brakes, the better wheels, the higher spec tires and the look that channels the C7R.
If history is a guide, a GS probably won't see a power bump unless it is applied to the Stingray as well. Developing and emissions certifying new engines is an expensive business. If we were to see significant engine developments it might actually be part of the early development process for the C8. I know that there would be a lot of push back for a boosted V6 in a Corvette but it may be inevitable because of the tightening fuel economy standards. A V6 Corvette with say 550 hp, no weight gain over a current Stingray, and perhaps 32 mpg highway might actually be a good thing. As the saying goes, adapt or die.
The camaro 6 th gen camaro v8 should be a slightly hotted up LT1 which should also make an appearance in the corvette c7 grand sport. (Or z51)
I don't believe the camaro z28 6th gen will not go forced induction as it will probably compete with the GT350 so the engine should be a hotted up LT1....
If it's available,,,,I'd imagine corvette will also have this engine available.
I believe as c7 sales start to tail off slightly in 2017 or 2018 the grand sport sales success siren of the c6 will call to the c7 team.
A lot of c6 guys with 436 hp didn't fall head over heals for the 20 odd hp increase to make the jump...
I think a cool fifty hp or possibly 80 or 90 extra hp would make a lot of c5 or c6 owners purchase a new corvette....that haven't done so just yet...(with warranty)
Not something the corvette team will discuss until it's ready to release most probably due to its effect on present stingray sales
Last edited by JerriVette; 10-31-2015 at 08:55 AM.
A GS C7 would be the ONLY new Corvette I would consider, mainly for the reliability and lack of complexity over a supercharged platform. I am hoping for an enthusiast based option from Corvette.
I think if Corvette continues to sell and meet its targets, we'll see these more specific interests met. They HAVE to know that there is an outcry by many for that enthusiast car...the track car, the car that combines all the lessons, and one that the enthusiast demographic can afford. This all looks back to the C5Z in my opinion...how the concept started, and how it ended. It's the car with a bump in hp, a lot of effort into reducing weight, keeping the price in line with a mid level equipped base, etc.
I think it's coming...of some sort. At SEMA we see this new Z51 with some Z06 parts bin added. Once they sell a lot enough product, I think we'll see a combo car coming...
It's funny I thought a motivator for gm would be if the corvette sales start to tail off that they would mix and match the wide body fenders and tires with a mildly tuned LT1 to produce a 500 hp c7 grand sport.
I thought the wheels and tires would be slightly narrower to not need that black front wheel well strip....and yet allow for slightly wider wheels and tires from the flared fenders.
I figured the usual 3rd or 4th year hp bump would fit right into this new c7 grand sport.
I'm assuming the camaro team will want a competitor to the GT350 from ford with its 525 hp naturally aspirated v8 and that a dual purposes hotted up LT1 making similar hp could be used in the 6 th gen camaro z28 and a c7 corvette grand sport to spread development costs between the two platforms....
I happen to think if sales remain strong for the c7 stingray with 460 hp there would be less motivation in gm s part to bring out a grand sport version.
I do not mean to be argumentative but rather just shooting the breeze on a cool subject.
Either way I agree it would in my opinion be a cool spiritual successor to the C5 z06...
I don't think the grand sport would damage c7 z06 sales because it would be down around 125 hp compared to the z06. It would be up around 55 hp from the standard stingray which is only 12 to 15 percent...give or take and many buyers would still be happy with the stingray as is.
I'd suggest there is a small contingent that would like a good 55 or 65 hp increase and the wider body without possibly the tail spoiler as standard for the price of a not fully loaded but nicely loaded stingray ...as we have in the showroom today..
Add 5 or 8 grand to the price of a c7 z51 price for the wider bodywork, bigger tires and 500 plus hp motor...if the c7 z51 is around 62 grand MSRP so make the grand sport 67 or 69 MSRP. I'm just guessing on price points ..basically halfway between z51 and z06.
The black trim lip on the ZO6 fenders is actually an aero aid not a splash guard, it is actually beneficial so I'd be surprised and disappointed if they dropped it.
In cutting cost slightly narrower wheels might negate the need for the black fender lips and would keep the z06 slightly more special.
Slightly narrower front wheels that fit under the front fenders without the need for the front wheels might also be slightly more aerodynamic....
We are all shooting the breeze but decontenting the z06 body work would allow for apparent differentiation of the two models without offending those who pony up for the 650 hp z06....as compared to the potiential 525 hp wider body grand sport....
Similar in design and execution that successfully prolonged desirability of the c6 corvette....
I'm not suggesting the deletion of the z51 package on the standard stingray.....but rather place something midway between it and the c7 z06.
I'd also like all spoilers to be deleted or minimized again to secure those who prefer the c7 z06 and make it easier to lower production cost.
This car at SEMA this year is getting might close to a Grand Sport. The difference being, it's more of a focused track machine, taking the Z51 and cooling it more heavily. ONLY thing that absolutely made my eyes BLEED on this car was the use of the center clear wicker bill only and the red line on the wheels...both pure styling fails. I understand the use of only the center clear wicker...to mildly add some additional downforce that the Z51 spring rates/dampers can use, but man...sure looked like hell.
If we continue to see an upward trend of Corvette guys tracking their cars, the demand for a track focused machine will happen because it will be justified to build. Again...650hp isn't necessary at an enthusiast HPDE level. You look at Porsche's move with the GT4 Cayman and it's pretty interesting. They took GT3 front suspension, mixed it in with a driver car and a manual and everyone wanted it. Sure, it's not setting Nurburgring records, but enthusiasts like it.
Hopefully a REAL HALO Corvette comes out of the secret Corvette labs and the Z06 can possibly return to that model of being an enthusiast machine...GOD I hope...
I'm watching the "spec z51's" going to the corvette michelin challenge next spring. I would like to see many of the z06 features w/o 650 hp. A truly track car for the weekend driver. A Z51 with Z07 performance package ala grand sport?
The black trim lip on the ZO6 fenders is actually an aero aid not a splash guard, it is actually beneficial so I'd be surprised and disappointed if they dropped it.
No....GM cheaped out by not designing a wider front bumper that would have eliminated the need for the Rubicon Jeep flares.
10-20-2015, 08:19 PM
