out of phase/in phase?
11-11-2010, 07:19 AM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
out of phase/in phase?
Well I am going for another upgrade on my front stage.
I am thinking of Image Dynamics 6.5 comp to replace my JL's and then getting the Kenwood Xr4s to run them. I also just found a really good price on ARC 400.4 today. This will be going into my 00 Coupe.
I have been reading that some of you guys are running the tweeter out of phase WHY?
What amp would you go with The KAR 400.4 it would be bridged for 190x2, or would the Kenwood be the best bet?
I am thinking of Image Dynamics 6.5 comp to replace my JL's and then getting the Kenwood Xr4s to run them. I also just found a really good price on ARC 400.4 today. This will be going into my 00 Coupe.
I have been reading that some of you guys are running the tweeter out of phase WHY?
What amp would you go with The KAR 400.4 it would be bridged for 190x2, or would the Kenwood be the best bet?
11-12-2010, 09:30 PM
#2
Former Vendor
That Kenwood is a class D amp, the Arc Kar, KS mini, older XXK, and especially the SE line would absolutely blow that away as well as any good AB amp design. D class amps just plain suck, none are that great even ones I had that retailed for over $1k.
The KS mini is a G class, AB amp with switching power supply designed by Robert Zeff, original founder and head engineer of Zapco, I use them in my Vette and love them, tiny, high powered, dang good amps
The regular line of KAR amps is the grandson to amps I beat a world champion with
--------------
Out of phase, in phase, if the tweeters are close together you wire all speakers positive to negative in most all cases.
If the tweeters are in the A pillars then try reversing the pos and neg wiring resulting in out of phase wiring but usually in phase response and usually works the best.
I am experimenting with reversing just one tweeter phase in the A pillars, never had to before but Eric at ID and I were talking about getting a proper sound stage in a Vette and he suggested I try that.
Hope this helps
Rick
The KS mini is a G class, AB amp with switching power supply designed by Robert Zeff, original founder and head engineer of Zapco, I use them in my Vette and love them, tiny, high powered, dang good amps
The regular line of KAR amps is the grandson to amps I beat a world champion with
--------------
Out of phase, in phase, if the tweeters are close together you wire all speakers positive to negative in most all cases.
If the tweeters are in the A pillars then try reversing the pos and neg wiring resulting in out of phase wiring but usually in phase response and usually works the best.
I am experimenting with reversing just one tweeter phase in the A pillars, never had to before but Eric at ID and I were talking about getting a proper sound stage in a Vette and he suggested I try that.
Hope this helps
Rick
11-12-2010, 09:41 PM
#3
Uber Waxer
That Kenwood is a class D amp, the Arc Kar, KS mini, older XXK, and especially the SE line would absolutely blow that away as well as any good AB amp design. D class amps just plain suck, none are that great even ones I had that retailed for over $1k.
The KS mini is a G class, AB amp with switching power supply designed by Robert Zeff, original founder and head engineer of Zapco, I use them in my Vette and love them, tiny, high powered, dang good amps
The regular line of KAR amps is the grandson to amps I beat a world champion with
--------------
Out of phase, in phase, if the tweeters are close together you wire all speakers positive to negative in most all cases.
If the tweeters are in the A pillars then try reversing the pos and neg wiring resulting in out of phase wiring but usually in phase response and usually works the best.
I am experimenting with reversing just one tweeter phase in the A pillars, never had to before but Eric at ID and I were talking about getting a proper sound stage in a Vette and he suggested I try that.
Hope this helps
Rick
The KS mini is a G class, AB amp with switching power supply designed by Robert Zeff, original founder and head engineer of Zapco, I use them in my Vette and love them, tiny, high powered, dang good amps
The regular line of KAR amps is the grandson to amps I beat a world champion with
--------------
Out of phase, in phase, if the tweeters are close together you wire all speakers positive to negative in most all cases.
If the tweeters are in the A pillars then try reversing the pos and neg wiring resulting in out of phase wiring but usually in phase response and usually works the best.
I am experimenting with reversing just one tweeter phase in the A pillars, never had to before but Eric at ID and I were talking about getting a proper sound stage in a Vette and he suggested I try that.
Hope this helps
Rick
interesting idea, i have my tweeters in the a pillars, and they are aimed at each other and if it werent for the z1's sound stage adjustment, the front stage always pulls way to the left. why the installer didnt put them angled at the windshield, i will never know. but thats what i get for assuming he knew what he was doing....
11-12-2010, 09:45 PM
#4
Former Vendor
Actually you were very lucky, they are supposed to aim at each other, few installers have a real clue how to build a system right but may this guy does
Try reversing the wiring on the tweeters, easier at the amp, pos to neg....
Then listen, if not right then try moving just one back to in phase, net to pos, then listent, try all options until it is the best.
Make sure the mids are in phase with each other or the output will be much lower. Sometimes we have to do this on purpose but normally in kick panel installs and a three way system but there are no absolutes, each vehicle, location, and gear can and will make a difference.
Rick
Try reversing the wiring on the tweeters, easier at the amp, pos to neg....
Then listen, if not right then try moving just one back to in phase, net to pos, then listent, try all options until it is the best.
Make sure the mids are in phase with each other or the output will be much lower. Sometimes we have to do this on purpose but normally in kick panel installs and a three way system but there are no absolutes, each vehicle, location, and gear can and will make a difference.
Rick
11-14-2010, 04:22 PM
#7
Uber Waxer
my bose in my cts and escalade aim more at the windshield than each other....maybe im the uneducated one....
I will play around with the phasing and see what I get.....but a very interesting concept.
11-14-2010, 04:24 PM
#8
Uber Waxer
Actually you were very lucky, they are supposed to aim at each other, few installers have a real clue how to build a system right but may this guy does
Try reversing the wiring on the tweeters, easier at the amp, pos to neg....
Then listen, if not right then try moving just one back to in phase, net to pos, then listent, try all options until it is the best.
Make sure the mids are in phase with each other or the output will be much lower. Sometimes we have to do this on purpose but normally in kick panel installs and a three way system but there are no absolutes, each vehicle, location, and gear can and will make a difference.
Rick
Try reversing the wiring on the tweeters, easier at the amp, pos to neg....
Then listen, if not right then try moving just one back to in phase, net to pos, then listent, try all options until it is the best.
Make sure the mids are in phase with each other or the output will be much lower. Sometimes we have to do this on purpose but normally in kick panel installs and a three way system but there are no absolutes, each vehicle, location, and gear can and will make a difference.
Rick
I have JL XR653's with the JL tweeters replaced with german maestro tweeters, so cant really do it at the amp since the crossover is buried in the dash.
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Coyote58 (01-20-2019)
11-14-2010, 05:07 PM
#9
Former Vendor
Evil,
You could pop off the pillar trims and swap the wiring there, if it gets worse then the shop had a clue, if better then they did not have a clue.
Hint, very very few shops, sadly, have a clue.
----------------
Bose is the worst in OEM audio systems, their home audio is crap as well an they know it, Bose, GM, make a killing on this junk. If you heard the JBL system in the Tundra I sold to get a GMC diesel, with Bose, you would of been astounded by the difference. The only thing the Tundra needed was a better amp setup and sub, it was then dang good, even surprised me at how good.
I did have the opportunity to chat, by phone, with the project leader on the Tundra system since they are a customer or mine, Harman International, about this. They had a budget, they spent it where it mattered the most.
-----------
Bose, they spend it where it makes the most money no matter how bad it is, sad but true and painfully obvious when you hear something done as good as can be, within a budget, then upgraded a bit, then dang fine compared to really nothing you can do with Bose except toss it in the trash, which I usually do.
I am VERY sincere about this.
Rick
You could pop off the pillar trims and swap the wiring there, if it gets worse then the shop had a clue, if better then they did not have a clue.
Hint, very very few shops, sadly, have a clue.
----------------
Bose is the worst in OEM audio systems, their home audio is crap as well an they know it, Bose, GM, make a killing on this junk. If you heard the JBL system in the Tundra I sold to get a GMC diesel, with Bose, you would of been astounded by the difference. The only thing the Tundra needed was a better amp setup and sub, it was then dang good, even surprised me at how good.
I did have the opportunity to chat, by phone, with the project leader on the Tundra system since they are a customer or mine, Harman International, about this. They had a budget, they spent it where it mattered the most.
-----------
Bose, they spend it where it makes the most money no matter how bad it is, sad but true and painfully obvious when you hear something done as good as can be, within a budget, then upgraded a bit, then dang fine compared to really nothing you can do with Bose except toss it in the trash, which I usually do.
I am VERY sincere about this.
Rick
11-14-2010, 05:09 PM
#10
Former Vendor
Spend your money wisely, it is and will be even harder to come by in the future in the good old USA (that I love dearly). To many greedy bastards have put things in place that are not easy to overcome
Rick
Rick
11-15-2010, 01:09 PM
#11
Uber Waxer
my bose in my 2010 caddy is much better than any other bose system I have ever had from the factory, but i have mainly owned gm cars... 
why cant I get my martin logan sound in my car.....
why cant I get my martin logan sound in my car.....
11-16-2010, 12:42 PM
#13
Former Vendor
Using an old school CD player, used amp, good but not insanely costly speakers, exceptionally well executed install, very very well tuned, I can beat just about any home audio sound you could imagine. Doubt it? Come on out to Utah and I will let you hear one but not in my Vette, not yet but it will happen eventually
Home "audiophiles" will argue all day it cannot happen but that is bias and lack of experience at play, period. I have had Symphony Conductors, very highly skilled professional musicians, recording engineers, and the third generation owner of the oldest Hi Fi shop in the US is blown away by a system I built years ago. He then brought out his grandmother(wife of the founder of the business) who still works at the shop to come out and listen and she was amazed. That is saying something (it was a higher end install, McIntosh, Zapco processors including DAC, Dynaudio drivers, etc they heard, next install was even better but when I retired the truck from comp I installed some used gear I had with a total retail value of under $2k and it would still blow most anybody away because it was built right and is tunable)
BUT, after 200 hours of sound deadening, my all time best system ($20k in gear alone) still sounded best when parked, as all systems will, you cannot remove all road noise unless you use active noise cancellation but I highly doubt that is discerning enough to not eliminate some of the audio spectrum, no matter what the advocates of it say, pure logical perspective though.
So, I do not go after the purest, highest end, whatever systems, I go after what does a very very good job, takes up little space, very reasonable in cost, does not add a ton of weight to our supercars. While parked it will be great, while driving is about as good as you can expect to get in these cars which is light years better than stock or what 99% of shops will do for you (sadly most, not all, most, are pretty clueless when it comes to properly putting together a good mobile audio system
For those wanting to go all out you can do better than what I offer but the cost goes up exponentially, takes up much more space, adds much more weight and in my mind is just not compatible with what these cars are, super performance, low weight, best in class for the money in the whole world. I prefer not to see them laden with huge systems so I offer the lowest weight/high performance setups I can.
For those that have different opinions, I do not agree but respect them, I would sell that type of system if I must. I make more money on a bigger system of course but I will try to talk you into being at least moderate about it, these cars are built to drive, not look at and sit and listen to
-------
To be clear, I am still sorting out some speaker placement and tuning issues in these cars, they are not easy to get great results from, good is easy, great is a bit tougher, the hardest vehicle I have done yet but I will get there
Rick
Home "audiophiles" will argue all day it cannot happen but that is bias and lack of experience at play, period. I have had Symphony Conductors, very highly skilled professional musicians, recording engineers, and the third generation owner of the oldest Hi Fi shop in the US is blown away by a system I built years ago. He then brought out his grandmother(wife of the founder of the business) who still works at the shop to come out and listen and she was amazed. That is saying something (it was a higher end install, McIntosh, Zapco processors including DAC, Dynaudio drivers, etc they heard, next install was even better but when I retired the truck from comp I installed some used gear I had with a total retail value of under $2k and it would still blow most anybody away because it was built right and is tunable)
BUT, after 200 hours of sound deadening, my all time best system ($20k in gear alone) still sounded best when parked, as all systems will, you cannot remove all road noise unless you use active noise cancellation but I highly doubt that is discerning enough to not eliminate some of the audio spectrum, no matter what the advocates of it say, pure logical perspective though.
So, I do not go after the purest, highest end, whatever systems, I go after what does a very very good job, takes up little space, very reasonable in cost, does not add a ton of weight to our supercars. While parked it will be great, while driving is about as good as you can expect to get in these cars which is light years better than stock or what 99% of shops will do for you (sadly most, not all, most, are pretty clueless when it comes to properly putting together a good mobile audio system
For those wanting to go all out you can do better than what I offer but the cost goes up exponentially, takes up much more space, adds much more weight and in my mind is just not compatible with what these cars are, super performance, low weight, best in class for the money in the whole world. I prefer not to see them laden with huge systems so I offer the lowest weight/high performance setups I can.
For those that have different opinions, I do not agree but respect them, I would sell that type of system if I must. I make more money on a bigger system of course but I will try to talk you into being at least moderate about it, these cars are built to drive, not look at and sit and listen to
-------
To be clear, I am still sorting out some speaker placement and tuning issues in these cars, they are not easy to get great results from, good is easy, great is a bit tougher, the hardest vehicle I have done yet but I will get there
Rick
Last edited by RAAMaudio; 11-16-2010 at 12:47 PM.
11-18-2010, 12:13 AM
#14
Pro
Thread Starter
Well an update,
I ordered my image Dynamics today. They will be at my house on Tuesday and I will let you know how they sound when I get them installed.
I am going to see how my JL 300/4v2 will push them for now and if I am not happy I will replace the amp.
I ordered my image Dynamics today. They will be at my house on Tuesday and I will let you know how they sound when I get them installed.
I am going to see how my JL 300/4v2 will push them for now and if I am not happy I will replace the amp.
11-18-2010, 12:32 PM
#15
Former Vendor
Which ones did you get?
Not sure I mentioned it but I stock several versioins and can get all the others as well as their subs, amps, etc...and have great prices so I hope you got a good deal on them
And, I hope you got a warranty, not many places actually have a warranty though may lead you to believe they do, I am OEM licensed with them for Vette audio systems so have the best coverage/service possible
Have a great day!
Rick
801-829-4997
Not sure I mentioned it but I stock several versioins and can get all the others as well as their subs, amps, etc...and have great prices so I hope you got a good deal on them
And, I hope you got a warranty, not many places actually have a warranty though may lead you to believe they do, I am OEM licensed with them for Vette audio systems so have the best coverage/service possible
Have a great day!
Rick
801-829-4997
11-25-2010, 12:08 AM
#18
Pro
Thread Starter
Well my speakers arrived yesterday in the mail. My first impression is WOW, they look really well made. The magnet is massive and the spider is nice and tight on the woofer. The tweeters look well made and this is the first speaker system that I purchased that came with 14 ga. wire already fabbed with terminals sodered. The tweeter pigtail is 18 ga then it stepps to 14ga.
I will not get to hear these babies unitl possibly sunday because of my in-laws coming to Turkey weekend.
I will post pics when I start my install...
I will not get to hear these babies unitl possibly sunday because of my in-laws coming to Turkey weekend.
I will post pics when I start my install...
11-25-2010, 12:46 AM
#19
Le Mans Master
That Kenwood is a class D amp, the Arc Kar, KS mini, older XXK, and especially the SE line would absolutely blow that away as well as any good AB amp design. D class amps just plain suck, none are that great even ones I had that retailed for over $1k..
Hope this helps
Rick
Hope this helps
Rick
Kenwood sucks? Is this a good amp?
KENWOOD EXCELON XR 5S 5 CHAANNEL AMP
11-30-2010, 07:21 AM
#20
Pro
Thread Starter
Ok well last night I started my speaker replacement. I had to do a little moding to the mounting hole because it was just a hair too small in Dia. Out came the rotozip to make the hole bigger. Then after a little shaving the mid fit in just right. I then mounted the cross over to the top of the plate(where the factory 3.5 was) of the MDF plate. I then installed the plate after hooking up all the wires. I am still not a 100% sure where I am mounting my tweeter. I placed it in the door pulls temp. Then it was off to the other side to do the same thing.
I then bridged my 4 ch to 2 ch and set the gains, I have a JL300/4V2s I set the gains with my volt meter. JL states that I should get 24.6 VAC at 1kh 0db ref. I set to that volt on both left and right. Then it was off for a sound test.
I started off playing with the EQ a little. I am impressed with this set so far.
Nice tight mid range and the highs scream(this is what I was looking for) I did not even have my subs turned on and this set was holding there own(of course I set my high pass) but it was fun to hear how low they would go and not a bit of distorsion. It was late so I will tune a little more tomorrow and find the right location for the tweeters. I have to admit I do like them where they are now.
I will keep you all updated.............
I then bridged my 4 ch to 2 ch and set the gains, I have a JL300/4V2s I set the gains with my volt meter. JL states that I should get 24.6 VAC at 1kh 0db ref. I set to that volt on both left and right. Then it was off for a sound test.
I started off playing with the EQ a little. I am impressed with this set so far.
Nice tight mid range and the highs scream(this is what I was looking for) I did not even have my subs turned on and this set was holding there own(of course I set my high pass) but it was fun to hear how low they would go and not a bit of distorsion. It was late so I will tune a little more tomorrow and find the right location for the tweeters. I have to admit I do like them where they are now.
I will keep you all updated.............