Gentlemen, (because let's face it, not a lot of chicks get into this) I am interested in hearing some opinions on amplifiers, particularly the choice between the Class D and Class A/B offerings of nowadays. My question for those of you in the know, can you utilize a class D amp on the upper end (mids and tweets) and achieve good SQ? I am not talking just clean. I am talking about true sound quality. I am really curious as in the pursuit of the best amplifiers, one limits oneself if only buying Class A/B for the top end. Thoughts?

 

First...the default statement. All audio quality is ALWAYS subjective to the listener.

Now that's out of the way, I've ALWAYS run class D's. In everything. The rhyme/reason for it initially was cost versus performance. They (Class D) has typically been cheaper than A/B's. This was also a major factor for many of my friends early in my audio days. So I must admit, it wasn't until the last 5-6 years or so that I even got a chance to audition A/B amps. There are pros/cons for both (like everything I suppose). I can also say that most of the winning SQL builds I've auditioned have used A/B amps. A TON of Mosconi, Audison, ZAPCO, etc are used in those builds. But there has also been several D amps that run right along side them. So there's not a "clear victor" when having that discussion either. Ironically, the most common question when talking to newb's is "what amp should I get?" They're really only concerned with if they have enough channels and power to drive what they're installing. This is fine for newbs, but never for audiophiles.

I will admit, I do often think the A/B's I've auditioned have had a "warmer sound" (mainly Mosconi's) than my system. But I don't necessarily think it ONLY due to the amp selection. DSP tuning has a HUGE impact on that. I will make a professional assessment and say that if you are going to run a DSP from the start, the A/B class may provide a richer sound that some are after. But if NO DSP will be used, OR you're running a passive setup in a normal car where heat and longevity are factors, you care about cost, and you want the smallest amp possible...Class D all the way.

 

Hmmmm....what you are saying somewhat reinforces my desire for class A/B. I will sacrifice the size of the amp for sound quality, ESPECIALLY if you can achieve a warmer more audiophile high end home like sound which is tough in an auto environment. Morel has an interesting class A/B 4 channel and JL has their slash amp that is A/B. Decisions, decisions. I knew Mosconi and Audison were popular nowadays, but Zapco? Are they still building a high end amp? I have built, sold, and installed car stereo systems since the 80's and worked a shop in Phoenix back in the day. Got to tour the Rockford Fosgate factory in Tempe with our regional rep one time and it was impressive. It really sold me on their amplifiers. I felt like they were ahead of the game back in the day. Not sure where they stack up now but my 19 year old power series amps sound really good yet. I plan to update and when I do, I don't spare the coin within reason. I would like to be in $1200 to $2000 range for two amps.

 

I run a DD S4B amp (Digital Designs) and am absolutely thrilled with the sound quality I get. The amp was made in 2006 and I just had to send it in for repair. They told me it is a class A/B. I don’t have a DSP and mine sounds so good to my ears that I don’t think that I’ll add one. The only part lacking in my system is just a little more bass. I am limited with only 720 watts on the rear channel as to what I can have. I’ve also run in the past some JL 300/2 amps but I did have issues keeping them alive. Maybe it was the Boston Pro series components that had the 3ohm load? I’m not sure but I went through about 3 of them in the 15 years I had the system in the car. I had 2 JL 500/1 amps running my 10w7s and they never even had a hiccup. Only had issues with the 300/2s. I’ve never had the budget to try any of the super high end stuff y’all are talking about above. I would think that your budget should get you something that sounds fantastic!!

 

Not to get off topic but how did those Boston pro series components sound? I like the sound of Boston Acoustics home speakers from back in the day. Still have two pair of T830's in my weight room in the basement that sound gorgeous to this day. And yes, I should be able to plunk down on some nice amps but so difficult to decide. Back in the day it would have been Rockford all the way. Now I would like to try and find the best. The best to me, is the most musically accurate audiophile possible sound you can get in an auto environment. My SPL days are probably behind me. Once in a while to wiggle the mirror and wake my girlfriend up but I am after sonic nirvana at a few decibels lower than a jet taking off, LOL. I don't have anywhere close to really audition anything either and more often than not it sounds different in the sound room than when you put it in your car. I have to rely on research and sometimes a little trial and error. Well, I take that back. There is one local shop that has Audison but he doesn't have any of the higher end amps. He is in my earhole about buying Audison though, but then he sells it....

 

Yeah, ZAPCO is considered "high-end" in the SQL competition world. I want to be careful with my words too man. As I mentioned, IMO a DSP makes all the difference in the world when enjoying music. It's an extremely difficult task to determine which device in the system is more responsible for the overall sound quality. Like anything...it's a "system of components" that all work together to reproduce sound as accurately as recorded. Now, I've run Slash series for a LONG time, and they've always sounded great. But without a DSP and tuning, I could never get them to sound like I wanted in the Corvette. In the Cobra and the Tahoe, they were great. Was that the amps fault? Of course not. Now had I added a quality DSP to the Slash's...would they have had a better sound? Of course. The million dollar question is would the A/B sound better than a D with a DSP? The answer is I don't know. The direct comparison I have is my Z, and my buddies Camaro. I run all D, he has all A/B. He has won SQL competitions with his rig, and rightly so. It sounds beautiful. We also BOTH have high-end DSP's. When I'm in his rig, I'm blown away by how good it sounds. But ironically, when he gets in my rig, he's blown away with how good mine sounds. But when competing, you just want your output to match the curve as flat as possible to the target curve you're using. Most of the time, competitors use Andy's "JBL Curve" as even I have done. The curve you tune to has MORE impact on what you hear than the components used. But we're not competing right? We're just enthusiasts that want the best sounding system we can put together.

This is VERY hard to do...especially on a budget. So I feel like there's really no definitive answer here. But, I would tell someone that if they were NOT going to use a DSP, an A/B amp would probably provide a sliver of better performance (with heat, cost, and longevity being the trade-off). But if you're going to use a DSP...either amp class can get you where you want to be. FWIW, I've NEVER heard a Mosconi equipped system not sound beautiful.

 

The Boston Pros sounded fantastic for 2002 technology. I would only assume that things have gotten better since but wouldn’t swear to it. They didn’t sound audibly, to me, better than the Focals I had in my ‘03 Cobra or the Morels that I’m using now. I don’t think I have quite the ear that some of you do and maybe that’s a blessing as I see so many changes for Ronin’s stereo. Ronin, please keep all the good info coming, I feel like I’m learning a lot!!

 

Absolutely I am not interested in competing, only in achieving SQ in my vette that is sonic nirvana to my ears that I can feel if I want to. My current system is the closest I have been since installing the new Kenwood flagship. Love that head unit so far. Interesting what you say about Mosconi. That is the type of sound I am seeking. It sounds like I will have to pony up for a DSP also.

 

What is your system NOT doing for you right now? Where is it lacking?

 

My low end is not perfect. I have rear corner enclosures and can't quite get what I want so I feel a re-do with a custom enclsoure/amp rack with new subs and amps. My amps are old, like 19 years old and they still sound damn good but not perfect. I think a freshening with new amps is in order and finally a DSP. I am really close where I am at, but it could be better. You know the drill, the quest never ends, LOL. That's why I am asking anyone in the know about today's equipment, esp. amplifiers as I want to upgrade them. Right now I am super clean and super loud. There is plenty of low end, just doesn't sound as perfect as I have heard before. Maybe in my vette it's tougher road to hoe but I still think it could be better. I am looking for that warmer sound on the top end also. My old power series amps are virtually indesctructible and the 4 channel is fairly musical, but I have heard better. I was thinking something along the lines of this:




Just some examples and I wouldn't necessarily want something just like one of these but maybe something along these lines...

 

I feel you man. Funny thing is, I wonder how happy those dudes are with their systems. I mean they look baller, but do they sound that way? Those up-firing subs man....somehow I think that causes more issues in the C6 than anything else. In the years I've been doing this, I've never met another vette owner local to me that had a system in their car. I seem to be the only one for hundreds of miles. Hell, even at car shows...nothing. It's lonely out there...LOL!

 

LOL, I feel ya. I'm in Kansas. Ain't nothing but a bunch of hayseeds living here, LOL. Maybe I need to rethink the upfiring approach after reading through your install thread. I had 4 8's upfiring in my C4 back in the day and it was like that, too. Output seemed better with windows down. My old boss at the audio store used to always talk about bass never being right in a car due to there not being enough airspace to to accommodate the wavelength of low frequency bass. I have to go out and try the window thing in my Z as my subs don't fire up, slightly angled up but not upfiring. Ok wait a minute here, I am getting off track. I still want some bad azz amps, man.

 

I did 4 x 8" down fire in my inlaws C4. It really surprised me. I still am a big believer in ported boxes. Had the best sound out of them (perfectly designed box, not just a sealed box with a port in it ... also best sounding amp that I personally owned was a JL Slash 500/5. I wouldn't mind a few of the / V2 now.

The 12TW1 sealed in my C6 had lots of cancellation. After reading Ronin's novel or a post somewhere about cancellation last year, I switched to a ported box (still woofers facing up) and had no cancellation and a ton more output. Trying to get my C7 to back to what sound or better. Still sticking with a 10" midbass though...

 

Mosconi amps, with a Mosconi (or Helix ) DSP is a highly utilized combination in the SQL game.

 

who is a member? and what class?
https://www.mecacaraudio.com/2017SQLRuleBook.pdf

 

My buddy is in "modified" division. Won 2nd place at the event I went to. I didn't see anyone compete in "stock." Although...I think my truck would have a DAMN GOOD shot in the street category.

 

So here are the brand name amps I would consider at this point. What are your opinions on this list. I prefer a two amp setup with a big mono block and musical 4 channel. All you amp pros, critique my list and if so inclined rank and opine on any or all.
Not necessarily in any order of preference these make my list:

JL Audio (I have heard in a few systems, really liked)
Hertz (Auditioned at our local shop. Owner really likes them but also sells them)
Focal (I have never heard these amps, just going off what I read)
Rockford Fosgate (I have had so many versions of these in my vehicles I lose count.)
Audison (I have heard the lower end of these at the shop. Sound pretty good but hard to tell in that environ)
Mosconi (I have never heard these but Ronin endorses, LOL)
Morel (Morel speakers kick *** so one would think....)

Maybe?
Alpine (I sold a ton of Alpine back in the day and used many of their amps, all old school though. I was more fond of their head units)

Thanks for any input!

 

Alpine PDX is what I run.
I've had JL (Slash) what I used to sell also.
Old school versions of:
Kenwood, Alpine, Rockford Fosgate (late 80's early 90's (Before the digital age) when I was in retail... All great amps. I actually still own a few of the Kenwood KAC 723/823/923 amps. Saving these for a fox body mustang or Iroc-Z

I've only read and seen pictures of Mosconi and Audison (high end installs) so no opinion there.

 

Every Mosconi equipped system I've heard has sounded awesome. But they've also ALWAYS been running a DSP with them. In today's game the DSP is appearing (to me anyway) to be far more important than amplifier selection. I say it like this. Not using a DSP is like modding the old pushrod 5.0 mustangs back in the day. The PCM's had the ability to "learn" the new combination and "tune itself" to run. And they would run good, but they never ran at peak performance until you got a chip that was tuned by a competent tuner. That chip is equivalent to the DSP. Amplifiers are like the top end package. They can help you breathe better and give you more performance, but they can also cause you catastrophic damage without being told exactly how to apply their power.

 

Mosconi amps sound fantastic. I went from a JL HD 900/5 to a Mosconi AS200.4s and immediately heard a difference without any changes. I was using the Kenwood 9902s head unit dsp at the time. Also look into the Zapco AP line. I'm leaning toward Vivaldi amps in my other car. A buddy who installed (backyard installer) and tunes his own stuff went to finals last year has fallen in love with Vivaldi. Unfortunately he may not be able to see how the new amps score with this **** going on.
DSP...i agree with Ronin...its a necessity for sq. Look into Helix offering or Zapco. I had a Mosconi and, to me, its not as user friendly as the Zapco or Helix. I have an Helix Ultra waiting to go in the other car and a Zapco DSP-Z8 IV II in the vette. The Z8 IV II is a great buy for price and features you get. The Zapco HDSP dsp is sick...but $$$$.
SQ in car or home audio is a rabbit hole you don't want to go down haha. I have pics to prove it