BrianCunningham

BTW The pump doesn't necessarily need to go down by the pan.
On the C6Z06 the scavage pump is right next to the pressure pump, behind the water pump.

I also found this f-body setup for the serpretine belt.

BrianCunningham

The F-body setup came from this page.
http://www.drysump.com/drsys4.htm
But I'm finding out it's for an LS1/6 not an LT1/L98
Neat setup, they use the stock pump for pressure.

Here's the old smallblock chevy setup.
http://www.drysump.com/kit1.htm

http://www.drysump.com/pan1b.htm


I'm finding out if the scavage/pressure pump can also be mounted up high like thier LS1/6 setup, which BTW has run at the 24hrs of Daytona.

BTW I've sent the thread addresses over to the vendor.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1367290
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1367285
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1356401
Perhaps if we show enough interest we can get a group purchase going.

BrianCunningham

more follow up ...

BrianCunningham

I just got off the phone with Gary. Nice guy.

It turns out a someone did make a dry-sump pan that kept the stock pump in place. But it really didn't work out. 1) having the pump down there really complicates the scavenging. 2) The problems with the stock pump in road race situations.

And you really want to run that pump as close to the pan as possible.

I described the packaging issues with have with both the cog belt and running the pump close to the pan.

I told him about the custom cog setup some of the supercharger guys use, and of it’s cost. He says ATI makes a damper that a cog drive can mate to, and that he’ll look up cog drives that will fit in our small amount of space.

Supercharger guys take note. If this pans out, you can use it to run you blower!

WNDOPDLR

I have talked to and purchased seat mounts from Gary at Hardbar and he is a great guy to work with. Had no idea he was invloved in other things like this possible conversion to a dry sump. Looking at the pictures of his car, he seems to be a pretty awesome fabricator.

We have a local outfit, Muscle Motors, who does a lot of work with Nascar engines and they have agreed to help with this conversion. Parts aren't cheap but neither is a new engine. As somebody said in another thread, it may be worth it when the engine is worth more than the entire car. It should also allow me to concentrate more on the track and my driving without having to worry about the oil delivery system.

Umrswimr

BTW- consider those two pieces SOLD when you get done. I'll take 'em.

redvetracr

A couple more things to remember with a dry sump......oil pan outlets versus header clearance, you want to underdrive the oil pump, this is done with tooth count of both drive gears...I believe 40% is about correct, you want the pump low because the pressure stage is a gravity feed from the bottom of the tank so you want the oil level in the tank above the pump, there should also be a coarse screen on the the scavenge OUT line back to the top of the tank.
...redvetracr

PS: If anyone is interested I have a nice Weaver bros three stage available off my vintage racer (I upgraded to a four stage) $350 owns it, I also have a couple of extra oil pans for two piece rear main seals $125ea. BUT e-mail direct!! redvetracr@msn.com

Slalom4me

I meant to comment about this back when you posted.

Typically, dry sump pumps are mounted low. I believe this is so that
gravity can assist or maintain the pump prime. Locating the DS pump
to the spot previously occupied by the A.I.R. pump seems to me like
a decision one should make with care.

I thought about suggesting use of an accumulator (Accusump or ?)
that would activate on startup and ensure oil is available to prime
the pump, but then the accumulator would be useless for maintaining
pressure in the event of a pump or ? failure.

Perhaps a small surge tank just before the pressure inlet stage?
Maybe just some creative hose routing to create a low section that
will keep several ounces from draining back? If the latter, just don't
forget and let someone 'tidy up' the engine compartment sometime
in the future.

.

Slalom4me

Funny what we come across in the (not so) old posts.

.

WNDOPDLR

[QUOTE=BrianCunningham]I just got off the phone with Gary. Nice guy.

.

I described the packaging issues with have with both the cog belt and running the pump close to the pan.

I told him about the custom cog setup some of the supercharger guys use, and of it’s cost. He says ATI makes a damper that a cog drive can mate to, and that he’ll look up cog drives that will fit in our small amount of space.

Brian-

Any more feedback from ATI or Gary about the cog drive pulley? Do I understand that the crank pulley would accomodate both the cog drive and the serpentine belt? Please keep in touch and advise us of your findings. There are appently a lot of people on this forum interested in the conversion if it can all be worked out.

BrianCunningham

He's been away ( Gary at Drysump.com not Gary at Hardbar )
I just sent him another email.

Do any of you have a pic of our engines out of the car, but with all the accesories installed?

WNDOPDLR

Not yet, but I will. I will have pictures soon of the modificaton we are making to the firewall to accomodate the tank. Will advise on the forum and maybe someone could post them for me.

ScaryFast

Still need the pics? I have some on my home PC. I'll post tonight.

I only have a front view, though. And it's an LT1.

I have a few of the engine compartment with the motor out, too, if you want to look at places to mount the pump.

bill mcdonald

found this on the net

bill mcdonald

and here is the F body version


can you mount all the crap on the other side of the engine?

BrianCunningham

Thanks guys, the fact that all the accesories are on on side should help. The opti obviously doesn't.

Perhaps we could resurect the drysump pan that keeps the pressure pump in the pan...

bill mcdonald

I would like to go with a dry sump as well. My last engine has big time oil control problems.

But how streetable would a dry sump be? I imagine a lot of oil lines running everywhere, which makes me nervous. more potential for leaks.

And next, if we did get dry sumps, that leaves clearence under the engine from the shallow oil pan. could we lower the engine for better center of gravity?
I gather the clutch/flywheel/bell housing would still be big.
what about the C beam and issues with geometry?
Probably too much trouble.

WNDOPDLR

Bill-
I am not approaching my dry sump converstion with any thought of streetability. Mine is now a track only car. I doubt you could do it on a street car unless you were willing to give up things like your heater and air conditioner. Space constraints are the limiting factor. We decided to cut and modify my fire wall after removing the heater box and all the A/C stuff. This will allow us to partially recess the oil tank into what would normally be the passenger foot well.

The oil pan is 4" deep, so theoretically the engine could be lowered, but it would have an affect on the pinion bearing angle. My car is already height challenged for loading and unloading from the trailer.

Leaks don't seem like a big concern for the track car. AN fittings are generally pretty good in that respect and I have had little trouble with them in the past. I understand the dry sump pump will leak after many many hours, but that isn't much of an issue for a track car.

Slalom4me

In effect, this entails a scavenge pump with one or more stages,
according to how many locations one wants to pick up oil from.

Along with the pump and the creation of the pick up points, there
should also be a tallish tank with baffles to deaerate the oil before
it gets returned to the sump. The return feed from the tank to the
sump could be a gravity feed, perhaps a line running to the existing
oil level sensor bung.

Because it is a hybrid system and the aim is to keep the pump fed
more than to capture ALL oil before it gets back into the rotating
assembly, perhaps smaller suction lines to points in the valve covers,
valley and maybe the timing cover would make the system less
cumbersome to plumb and maintain.

I still wonder about pump placement because unless someone knows
otherwise, I expect pump suction and longevity depends on an
initial prime and ongoing lubrication. If the pump is mounted high
and if some of the stages only pick up intermittantly from their
inlet points, the pump may be ineffective and short-lived.

.

Slalom4me

Bill McDonald and WNDOPDLR, without getting back under my car
I believe clearance at the cross-member is a limiting factor for
lowering the engine further. Is that ARE dry-sump pan any lower
at the front than the stock pan when you take into account the
cast ribs along the bottom?

I agree with WNDOPDLR that dropping the engine would/should be
accompanied by drivetrain revisions back to the center section in
order to retain alignment through the components. I don't doubt there
are modified cars out there running without regard for this but they
will pay the price in terms of increased vibration and decreased
component life. Probably the U-joints mainly.

WNDOPDLR, I don't think lowering the engine would impact clearance
loading/unloading. Wouldn't the bottom of the crossmember still
be the lowest point? If the bellhousing becomes a factor, I believe
the solution here is to go to the smaller clutch/flywheel package
and the appropriate bellhousing. Assuming that someone really felt
they needed to travel this road. After a recent offtrack excursion,
I'm a believer in not getting the vitals too low.

.