C4 Dry Sump
05-08-2006, 04:52 PM
#41
Originally Posted by Slalom4me
Bill McDonald and WNDOPDLR, without getting back under my car
I believe clearance at the cross-member is a limiting factor for
lowering the engine further. Is that ARE dry-sump pan any lower
at the front than the stock pan when you take into account the
cast ribs along the bottom?
I believe clearance at the cross-member is a limiting factor for
lowering the engine further. Is that ARE dry-sump pan any lower
at the front than the stock pan when you take into account the
cast ribs along the bottom?
05-08-2006, 05:27 PM
#42
Le Mans Master
Incidently, it has occured to me that I may have the means to
accurately monitor oil level in the pan.
I have read in the past about the practice of inserting fittings into
the oil pan drain plug and then rigging a sight glass. I believe the
source was refering to observing the level while operating on a dyno.
However, I have a bullet cam and can sync video with the data
I can collect during a run.
I think that by drilling and tapping a spare OP plug to take a 90º
elbow with a tubing barb, I can easily create a means of viewing
the oil level in the rear compartment of the Canton pan under
track conditions. At the moment, I think I'd just need to run the
tubing up to a catch bottle that is vented to atmosphere, an empty
oil bottle ought to be fine for a temporary test rig.
Based on past experience with tests under other cars, the bullet
cam will do well recording whatever there is to see down there.
For syncronizing the images, ideally I'd add a component that
would enable me to record from two sources - images forward
help determine when the run starts.
Just mention this for others who may be interested in testing.
.
accurately monitor oil level in the pan.
I have read in the past about the practice of inserting fittings into
the oil pan drain plug and then rigging a sight glass. I believe the
source was refering to observing the level while operating on a dyno.
However, I have a bullet cam and can sync video with the data
I can collect during a run.
I think that by drilling and tapping a spare OP plug to take a 90º
elbow with a tubing barb, I can easily create a means of viewing
the oil level in the rear compartment of the Canton pan under
track conditions. At the moment, I think I'd just need to run the
tubing up to a catch bottle that is vented to atmosphere, an empty
oil bottle ought to be fine for a temporary test rig.
Based on past experience with tests under other cars, the bullet
cam will do well recording whatever there is to see down there.
For syncronizing the images, ideally I'd add a component that
would enable me to record from two sources - images forward
help determine when the run starts.
Just mention this for others who may be interested in testing.
.
05-09-2006, 12:34 PM
#44
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: Boston, Dallas, Detroit, SoCal, back to Boston MA
Posts: 30,610
Received 239 Likes
on
167 Posts
Here's the complete series of emails between me and drysump.com
He's given the OK to post it:
He's given the OK to post it:
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 5:17 PM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Brian, I forgot ( again) we were talking LT1, but the system works the same, no matter what engine. Of course there are pan- mount of pump ect differences, but the objective and outcome arte the same. I do not build systems with any compromise whatsoever. Barnes used to build a system like that in the 80's. Everybody quit using it for the same reasons you are looking into a better system. They failed, and were not true dry sump systems. gary
Brian Cunningham wrote:
Ah, but, again, this is for the old-school L98's and LT1's
I realize this is a silly question, but can a scavenge pump be hooked up to the stock pan, so the stock oil pump can be retained. A line can then go back into the pump, perhaps through the old oil level sensor, back to the stock pump.
Brian T. Cunningham
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:15 PM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, Thanks for your interest in helping people get up to speed, with the proper way to do things. If you want, you can post a reply on my behalf. The problem is at least 2 fold... 1st the wet sump pan is designed wrong for high rpm/ cornering use, and 2nd, the accusump actually becomes a parasite (detrement) once it is emptied, ( which happens very fast) as the oil pump then has 2 jobs to do, fill the accusump back up at the same time keep the engine alive. This just doesnt happen. The pump can't supply enough volume ( even the high vol. pumps) once the accumulator is empty. The only solution is to drive slower ( ha!) or go dry sump. As I state in the "Technical Explanition of the Dry Sump System" on the web site, it is no accident that ALL Formula 1, Indy. Le Mans, Nascar, Speed Vision / World Challenge, most SCCA and any pro racing cars use dry sumps is no accident. It is simply what is required to keep the oil under control, ie pressure, under the extreems of all out racing. We have sold over 450 ot the LS1-6 systems, and are used worldwide to eleminate oiling problems. The freebee is about 27 horsepower too. (in an LS1) Hope this helpa, and feel free to call me if you have questions. Keep in mind, I do manufacture our stage 1 system, which does use the stock internal pump for pressure. However, it is a 100% pure dry sump system, with a seperate oil reservoir. Best regards, Gary Armstrong
Brian Cunningham wrote:
This time I've attached them
And here's the thread with everyone asking about them
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1356401
BTW who sold that drysump pan with the stock pump still installed?
Perhaps resurrecting it would be the best solution.
These _are_not_ full on race cars, but street driver cars used at autocrosses and track days.
Brian T. Cunningham
Brian Cunningham wrote:
Gary,
Here's a picture of the front of an LT1/4
http://www.grandsportregistry.com/ph...e_Close_up.jpg
Brian T. Cunningham, EIT, DAC Lead Performance Analyst x131
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Cunningham
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:32 PM
To: 'aremfg@ulink.net'
Subject: RE: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Gary,
Were you able to locate the cog drive pulley?
Do I understand that the crank pulley would accommodate both the cog drive and the serpentine belt?
There are apparently a lot of people on the corvette forum interested in the conversion if it can all be worked out.
Brian T. Cunningham, EIT, DAC Lead Performance Analyst x131
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:22 PM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, Why dont you give me a call so we can discuss this in person.
916-987-7629 Gary ( or, I can call you)
Brian Cunningham wrote:
Got it, that's what I was afraid of.
But if I was able to run a line back to the stock pump, assuming your dry-sump pan was deep enough, then I could just run a scavenge pump like the LS1 setup.
Brian T. Cunningham, EIT, DAC Lead Performance Analyst x131
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:13 AM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, Thanks, The pump must be driven with our gilmer timing belt drive, as the pressure stage takes too much load for a serpentine. The pump should be as low as possible, but if nesc., it can go up a bit. The SBC dry sump pump comes with a blade mount, left side (drivers side) normally.
Gary
Brian Cunningham wrote:
Sorry for not getting back sooner, dial-up at the house.
http://www.drysump.com/pan1b.htm
http://www.drysump.com/kit1.htm
Nice setup.
Can you run it off a serpentine belt like your LS1 setup?
http://www.drysump.com/drsys4.htm
If so, can the pump also be mounted up high?
I was thinking of mounting you scavage/pressure pump like you do on the LS1 setup.
BTW Feel free to chime in on the CorvetteForum where I've posted your
photos. Do you do group purchases?
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1367290
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1367285
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1356401
Brian T. Cunningham, EIT
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 6:56 PM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, I left you a message on your voice mail. Sorry, I did'nt pay attention to your e mail I guess. We make small block Dry Sump systems also, but do not use the stock pump. Lets talk tomorrow, and I will be happy to answer any questions.
Thanks, Gary Armstrong www.drysump.com
Brian Cunningham wrote:
I got your fax, but I've got an older Corvette 1995 with an LT1 not an LS1.
Think small block chevy with a serpentine belt.
I suppose, if there is clearance, I could run a line to the bottom of the stock pump where the pick up used to be.
Brian T. Cunningham
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 5:43 PM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, I think the F body set up would hit the steering rack. We make a Y body kit, which is used on all the Corvettes. This is our most popular system, 6 @ 24 Hours of Daytona this year. Let me know if you need more info. I will fax you kit info.
Thanks! Gary Armstrong
www.drysump.com
Brian Cunningham wrote:
Hello,
I've got a 95 Corvette that I'd like to fit with a drysump system. I do a lot of track days.
Can your F-body setup be used on a C4 Corvette.
I realize it's a little tight down there.
http://www.drysump.com/drsys4.htm
Brian T. Cunningham
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 5:17 PM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Brian, I forgot ( again) we were talking LT1, but the system works the same, no matter what engine. Of course there are pan- mount of pump ect differences, but the objective and outcome arte the same. I do not build systems with any compromise whatsoever. Barnes used to build a system like that in the 80's. Everybody quit using it for the same reasons you are looking into a better system. They failed, and were not true dry sump systems. gary
Brian Cunningham wrote:
Ah, but, again, this is for the old-school L98's and LT1's
I realize this is a silly question, but can a scavenge pump be hooked up to the stock pan, so the stock oil pump can be retained. A line can then go back into the pump, perhaps through the old oil level sensor, back to the stock pump.
Brian T. Cunningham
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:15 PM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, Thanks for your interest in helping people get up to speed, with the proper way to do things. If you want, you can post a reply on my behalf. The problem is at least 2 fold... 1st the wet sump pan is designed wrong for high rpm/ cornering use, and 2nd, the accusump actually becomes a parasite (detrement) once it is emptied, ( which happens very fast) as the oil pump then has 2 jobs to do, fill the accusump back up at the same time keep the engine alive. This just doesnt happen. The pump can't supply enough volume ( even the high vol. pumps) once the accumulator is empty. The only solution is to drive slower ( ha!) or go dry sump. As I state in the "Technical Explanition of the Dry Sump System" on the web site, it is no accident that ALL Formula 1, Indy. Le Mans, Nascar, Speed Vision / World Challenge, most SCCA and any pro racing cars use dry sumps is no accident. It is simply what is required to keep the oil under control, ie pressure, under the extreems of all out racing. We have sold over 450 ot the LS1-6 systems, and are used worldwide to eleminate oiling problems. The freebee is about 27 horsepower too. (in an LS1) Hope this helpa, and feel free to call me if you have questions. Keep in mind, I do manufacture our stage 1 system, which does use the stock internal pump for pressure. However, it is a 100% pure dry sump system, with a seperate oil reservoir. Best regards, Gary Armstrong
Brian Cunningham wrote:
This time I've attached them
And here's the thread with everyone asking about them
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1356401
BTW who sold that drysump pan with the stock pump still installed?
Perhaps resurrecting it would be the best solution.
These _are_not_ full on race cars, but street driver cars used at autocrosses and track days.
Brian T. Cunningham
Brian Cunningham wrote:
Gary,
Here's a picture of the front of an LT1/4
http://www.grandsportregistry.com/ph...e_Close_up.jpg
Brian T. Cunningham, EIT, DAC Lead Performance Analyst x131
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Cunningham
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 12:32 PM
To: 'aremfg@ulink.net'
Subject: RE: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Gary,
Were you able to locate the cog drive pulley?
Do I understand that the crank pulley would accommodate both the cog drive and the serpentine belt?
There are apparently a lot of people on the corvette forum interested in the conversion if it can all be worked out.
Brian T. Cunningham, EIT, DAC Lead Performance Analyst x131
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:22 PM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, Why dont you give me a call so we can discuss this in person.
916-987-7629 Gary ( or, I can call you)
Brian Cunningham wrote:
Got it, that's what I was afraid of.
But if I was able to run a line back to the stock pump, assuming your dry-sump pan was deep enough, then I could just run a scavenge pump like the LS1 setup.
Brian T. Cunningham, EIT, DAC Lead Performance Analyst x131
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:13 AM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, Thanks, The pump must be driven with our gilmer timing belt drive, as the pressure stage takes too much load for a serpentine. The pump should be as low as possible, but if nesc., it can go up a bit. The SBC dry sump pump comes with a blade mount, left side (drivers side) normally.
Gary
Brian Cunningham wrote:
Sorry for not getting back sooner, dial-up at the house.
http://www.drysump.com/pan1b.htm
http://www.drysump.com/kit1.htm
Nice setup.
Can you run it off a serpentine belt like your LS1 setup?
http://www.drysump.com/drsys4.htm
If so, can the pump also be mounted up high?
I was thinking of mounting you scavage/pressure pump like you do on the LS1 setup.
BTW Feel free to chime in on the CorvetteForum where I've posted your
photos. Do you do group purchases?
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1367290
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1367285
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1356401
Brian T. Cunningham, EIT
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 6:56 PM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, I left you a message on your voice mail. Sorry, I did'nt pay attention to your e mail I guess. We make small block Dry Sump systems also, but do not use the stock pump. Lets talk tomorrow, and I will be happy to answer any questions.
Thanks, Gary Armstrong www.drysump.com
Brian Cunningham wrote:
I got your fax, but I've got an older Corvette 1995 with an LT1 not an LS1.
Think small block chevy with a serpentine belt.
I suppose, if there is clearance, I could run a line to the bottom of the stock pump where the pick up used to be.
Brian T. Cunningham
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 5:43 PM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sumpe for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, I think the F body set up would hit the steering rack. We make a Y body kit, which is used on all the Corvettes. This is our most popular system, 6 @ 24 Hours of Daytona this year. Let me know if you need more info. I will fax you kit info.
Thanks! Gary Armstrong
www.drysump.com
Brian Cunningham wrote:
Hello,
I've got a 95 Corvette that I'd like to fit with a drysump system. I do a lot of track days.
Can your F-body setup be used on a C4 Corvette.
I realize it's a little tight down there.
http://www.drysump.com/drsys4.htm
Brian T. Cunningham
05-09-2006, 01:35 PM
#45
Le Mans Master
An interesting observation about the situation that occurs
when there an accumulator and circumstances result in it
discharging fully. But not really surprising when you do
the math.
The large accumulator holds 3/4 gallon. A good OEM pump
delivers say 8 gallons per minute at red line. So the
accumulator contains 10% of the volume the pump can flow
in one minute, or less than six seconds worth of protection
at speed.
Of course, it isn't this neat in real life. Still, it gives
a general sense of how narrow the margin of protection is
while there is fluid in the accumulator.
Then you need to fill the accumulator back up again.
.
when there an accumulator and circumstances result in it
discharging fully. But not really surprising when you do
the math.
The large accumulator holds 3/4 gallon. A good OEM pump
delivers say 8 gallons per minute at red line. So the
accumulator contains 10% of the volume the pump can flow
in one minute, or less than six seconds worth of protection
at speed.
Of course, it isn't this neat in real life. Still, it gives
a general sense of how narrow the margin of protection is
while there is fluid in the accumulator.
Then you need to fill the accumulator back up again.
.
05-09-2006, 01:51 PM
#46
Le Mans Master
Brian, I note that you continue to be interested in the hybrid
configuration.
If you have access to Bill Jenkin's and or Smokey Yunick's books,
they both have good sections on oiling: wet and dry. They
basically state that the hybrid is a dead player, too.
Of note in Smokey's book 'Power Secrets', at the time of publication
(mine is a 1st ed.) his opinion was that a dry sump consumes MORE
power than a wet sump. A difference of 8-10 HP or more is
mentioned. He made a case for the system on the basis of durability
under extreme conditions, rather than through HP gains.
As he was well aware of windage, it is not as if he wasn't taking
into account the benefits from pulling oil away from the
rotating/reciprocating parts when he made his statement.
Times change but I'd still look to the dry sump as an engine-saver
rather than a source of more HP. Every additional scavenge stage
is going to be a source of parasitic loss that isn't present in a wet
sump system.
.
configuration.
If you have access to Bill Jenkin's and or Smokey Yunick's books,
they both have good sections on oiling: wet and dry. They
basically state that the hybrid is a dead player, too.
Of note in Smokey's book 'Power Secrets', at the time of publication
(mine is a 1st ed.) his opinion was that a dry sump consumes MORE
power than a wet sump. A difference of 8-10 HP or more is
mentioned. He made a case for the system on the basis of durability
under extreme conditions, rather than through HP gains.
As he was well aware of windage, it is not as if he wasn't taking
into account the benefits from pulling oil away from the
rotating/reciprocating parts when he made his statement.
Times change but I'd still look to the dry sump as an engine-saver
rather than a source of more HP. Every additional scavenge stage
is going to be a source of parasitic loss that isn't present in a wet
sump system.
.
05-09-2006, 04:23 PM
#47
Le Mans Master
Another source for pans. Several SBC dry sump configurations offered.
Armando's Racing Oil Pans
Features of this one looks nice.
.
Armando's Racing Oil Pans
Features of this one looks nice.
.
05-09-2006, 04:52 PM
#48
Le Mans Master
05-19-2006, 12:04 PM
#49
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Dec 1999
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,813
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Just curious if anyone is still seriously considering blazing the trail on this?
I'm planning my new engine project and trying to decide which route to try going.
I talked with a local race shop that is interested in making it work (anything for money, of course). Due to labor cost and personal satisfaction, I'd rather do the work myself, though. I need to do some measurements on pulley, pump, and tank location.
Just wanted to see if anyone is still seriously looking at a drysump in a C4 for future info sharing purposes....
I'm planning my new engine project and trying to decide which route to try going.
I talked with a local race shop that is interested in making it work (anything for money, of course). Due to labor cost and personal satisfaction, I'd rather do the work myself, though. I need to do some measurements on pulley, pump, and tank location.
Just wanted to see if anyone is still seriously looking at a drysump in a C4 for future info sharing purposes....
05-19-2006, 12:27 PM
#50
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: Boston, Dallas, Detroit, SoCal, back to Boston MA
Posts: 30,610
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I'm serious, the problem is my car's in California.
If we can't find a pan that let's us run the stock pump. Then it needs to be removed, the holes plugged up, and a cog belt system setup all around the serprentine system. Which can be done, as the guys will cog driven blower have shown.
I'll post some pic later of the drive they came up with.
If we can't find a pan that let's us run the stock pump. Then it needs to be removed, the holes plugged up, and a cog belt system setup all around the serprentine system. Which can be done, as the guys will cog driven blower have shown.
I'll post some pic later of the drive they came up with.
05-19-2006, 12:51 PM
#51
Le Mans Master
Brian, the pans for retaining the stock pump are available, I've seen them
while searching recently. But I believe the folks who say that this is not
the direction to go.
As I think about it, the Canton 15-240T could be used this way if desired.
While I don't know if there is a readily available swinging pickup, the pan
has bungs that would serve as retun points for oil scavenged from elsewhere.
.
while searching recently. But I believe the folks who say that this is not
the direction to go.
As I think about it, the Canton 15-240T could be used this way if desired.
While I don't know if there is a readily available swinging pickup, the pan
has bungs that would serve as retun points for oil scavenged from elsewhere.
.
Last edited by Slalom4me; 05-19-2006 at 01:02 PM.
05-21-2006, 06:12 PM
#52
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Dec 1999
Location: Austin, TX
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If I do it, I'd definitely lose the stock pump. Too much negative feedback as well as added complexity.
After doing some measurements, it appears that a Peterson 3-gal tank (9" diameter by 16" tall) might just fit in the stock battery location. That's basically the only place that even comes close to having enought room. Not a prob for me since my battery isn't there anymore. It will be very tight, though since the computer and cruise control are right above that location. Unfortunately the smaller tanks are narrower, but taller so no way they would fit. I can't find any tanks out there that would fit any better. My car is a street car, so definitely don't want the tank in the passenger compartment.
Pump is even worse. There might be enough room on the passenger side, but I need to get some dimensions of a pump. There are so many designs out there. The cross member is the problem. Looks like I'd have to lose my camber brace though.
Brian, I'm very curious about the mandrel the blower guys are using. I have an ATI balancer which does have a bolt flange on front. With the camber brace on my car, I wasn't able to get in there to get any measurements in front of the balancer, though. I do remember having a clearance issue between the balancer and steering rack, though.
Pretty much the only good news is there are a good number of pans out there. The only thing I wasn't too thrilled with on pans is that none of the late model smallblock pans I can find have a pickup in the front of the pan. I'd feel better with a pickup in rear, middle, and front since pressure under braking seems to be the biggest problem.
I figure next time I'm getting messy with the car, I'll yank off the camber brace and take some more measurements. I like a good challenge, so I'd like to give it a try. However, since it is a street car, I'm not going to yank the AC or anything like that. If I can't find room for the componants, I'll just stick with my Canton pan and add an accusump. Not nearly as good, but better than nothing!
After doing some measurements, it appears that a Peterson 3-gal tank (9" diameter by 16" tall) might just fit in the stock battery location. That's basically the only place that even comes close to having enought room. Not a prob for me since my battery isn't there anymore. It will be very tight, though since the computer and cruise control are right above that location. Unfortunately the smaller tanks are narrower, but taller so no way they would fit. I can't find any tanks out there that would fit any better. My car is a street car, so definitely don't want the tank in the passenger compartment.
Pump is even worse. There might be enough room on the passenger side, but I need to get some dimensions of a pump. There are so many designs out there. The cross member is the problem. Looks like I'd have to lose my camber brace though.
Brian, I'm very curious about the mandrel the blower guys are using. I have an ATI balancer which does have a bolt flange on front. With the camber brace on my car, I wasn't able to get in there to get any measurements in front of the balancer, though. I do remember having a clearance issue between the balancer and steering rack, though.
Pretty much the only good news is there are a good number of pans out there. The only thing I wasn't too thrilled with on pans is that none of the late model smallblock pans I can find have a pickup in the front of the pan. I'd feel better with a pickup in rear, middle, and front since pressure under braking seems to be the biggest problem.
I figure next time I'm getting messy with the car, I'll yank off the camber brace and take some more measurements. I like a good challenge, so I'd like to give it a try. However, since it is a street car, I'm not going to yank the AC or anything like that. If I can't find room for the componants, I'll just stick with my Canton pan and add an accusump. Not nearly as good, but better than nothing!
05-22-2006, 08:45 AM
#53
Burning Brakes
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Member Since: Apr 2004
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[QUOTE=MarkBychowski]Just curious if anyone is still seriously considering blazing the trail on this?
I am pretty well into the project. Mine is a dedicated track car, and we just recently made modifications to the firewall, removed the heater/AC and cut a pocket into the firewall to mount a Peterson 8 1/2 qt tank. Pictures available if you are interested. This pocket protrudes a little into the passenger footwell, but not too bad. Will be fine for DE's. We are using a Canton drysump pan with a Peterson pump mounted low on the right side. Modifications have already been made to the engine and pump/drive belt should be mounted within next couple weeks. They go on the lower right side of the engine. As everyone knows, cross member and steering rack are very tight and it took a little machining to the available aftermarket parts, but looks like we got it. If anyone is interested, I can make pictures available as we progress.
I am pretty well into the project. Mine is a dedicated track car, and we just recently made modifications to the firewall, removed the heater/AC and cut a pocket into the firewall to mount a Peterson 8 1/2 qt tank. Pictures available if you are interested. This pocket protrudes a little into the passenger footwell, but not too bad. Will be fine for DE's. We are using a Canton drysump pan with a Peterson pump mounted low on the right side. Modifications have already been made to the engine and pump/drive belt should be mounted within next couple weeks. They go on the lower right side of the engine. As everyone knows, cross member and steering rack are very tight and it took a little machining to the available aftermarket parts, but looks like we got it. If anyone is interested, I can make pictures available as we progress.
05-22-2006, 01:14 PM
#54
Le Mans Master
WNDOPDLR - traditionally, the pump is mounted to the rear of the
belt drive when viewed from the side, as are the other 'accessories'.
What about turning the pump around and placing it ahead of the engine
instead of beside it? (A pump intended for reverse rotation or some
other provision would be required.)
I know you are well on the way toward completion but I wondered
whether a forward-mounted position was considered while you were
weighing your options.
.
belt drive when viewed from the side, as are the other 'accessories'.
What about turning the pump around and placing it ahead of the engine
instead of beside it? (A pump intended for reverse rotation or some
other provision would be required.)
I know you are well on the way toward completion but I wondered
whether a forward-mounted position was considered while you were
weighing your options.
.
Last edited by Slalom4me; 05-22-2006 at 01:17 PM.
05-22-2006, 01:20 PM
#55
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Dec 1999
Location: Austin, TX
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WNDOPDLR, sounds like you're making great progress!
I'm definitely interested in pics whenever you get a chance (no hurry for me since I'm not going to get into the project until winter).
Thanks!
I'm definitely interested in pics whenever you get a chance (no hurry for me since I'm not going to get into the project until winter).
Thanks!
05-23-2006, 12:02 AM
#56
Le Mans Master
WNDOPDLR - are you making any additional provisions for directing
oil spray at the piston bottoms for cooling and skirt lubrication?
Aside from the fact that part of the point of going to a dry sump
is to reduce the amount of oil entrained in windage, presumably
reducing the cooling of the pistons, the scavenge stages also have
some potential from creating negative crankcase pressure and I've
read that people who run vacuum pumps need to deal with skirt lube
considerations.
I'd be interested to hear whether you, your builder or anyone out
there with knowledge on the matter feel there is any substance to
these aspects or if they don't really factor in.
.
oil spray at the piston bottoms for cooling and skirt lubrication?
Aside from the fact that part of the point of going to a dry sump
is to reduce the amount of oil entrained in windage, presumably
reducing the cooling of the pistons, the scavenge stages also have
some potential from creating negative crankcase pressure and I've
read that people who run vacuum pumps need to deal with skirt lube
considerations.
I'd be interested to hear whether you, your builder or anyone out
there with knowledge on the matter feel there is any substance to
these aspects or if they don't really factor in.
.
05-23-2006, 09:03 AM
#57
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Member Since: Apr 2004
Location: Stanfield NC
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Slalom- Space is such a limiting factor on the engine compartment- it is sort of a matter of putting the parts and pieces where you can find room. I am lucky enough to live in the heart of NASCAR (yeah i know) country and we have some very talented automotive fabricators and job shops available to us in our back yard. I have enlisted the help of one of these shops and they will do the installaton of the pump and drive. I have seen the post about dry piston skirts, but my engine builder-also a NASCAR guy- doesn't see it as a problem. My entire motivation for doing all this is reliability, and he is very aware of that. I have also read the posts about gaining and losing HP, and it will be interesting to see where the numbers come in when this is all done. I don't really care as long as I gain in track time.
Mark- glad to send you pictures, but I cannot post to the forum. PM me with your email address and I will forward you some interior and engine compartment shots.
Mark- glad to send you pictures, but I cannot post to the forum. PM me with your email address and I will forward you some interior and engine compartment shots.
05-23-2006, 11:47 AM
#58
Drifting
My Lt1 drysump pan
I had to modify the Katech oil pan with some old chrome 4"pipe so I ould use the moroso Stock location filter adapter. The green color is teflon.
You can see the drive mandrel my dad machined for me. It fits right in my ATI balancer and uses any standard 1" drive pulley. I like Jones racing products pulleys. they have everyting including the power steering pulleys/alt pullies if you wanna convert the whole drive. But you need 50-60% crankspeed so you'll have a real impractical pump pulley.
I actually didnt end up using the drive mandrel, I had dad machine a 32 tooth lower 8mm round toothe pulley so it would interference fit around the back of the dampner mandrel (behind the serpantine). It allowed a more compact orientation of the autoverdi pump.
Lets not forget too guys, there are many sprint car style pumps that are meant to run backwards (in front of the motor) They also have fuel and power steering pumps off the back of them. A little modification of the cooling package would allow you guys to bolt in off the front crossmember and pulley down to a mandrel like my first attempt. BIG honkin turbo's prevented me from going this route (space) but NA roadrace guys are in the clear
Last edited by Baldturbofreak; 05-23-2006 at 11:50 AM.