Oyishdog

Guys, I know some of you have driven both corvettes and camaros/firebirds on the track. I am shopping around for a purpose built track car that offers more safety then a street car, as well as, something that I can begin wheel to wheel. T1 cars are way out of my budget, but I have found a few T2 prepped (mostly Phoenix prepped) Firebirds that seem to fit the bill. I know this is a "depends on the person" type question, but how are the handling characteristics of these cars? Am I going to be unhappy driving it on the track after being spoiled by the corvette performance/handling? Any comments on the subject would be helpful!

NJCRUISER

Here's my two cents. I did a few years of track days in a Z06 and then a year of regionals and a year of nationals in a T1 Z06. I sold everything and moved away and decided to rent a few cars and think about things. And make some more money
So one of the cars that I drove was a 2001 or so T2 Firebird. I was satified with it's acceleration through the gears. It's a different animal altogether under braking and under braking through a turn. And turning in general as compared to a vette. And also braking in a straight line even - the car dives bad. Get ready for wheel hop and mastering the clutch to settle the car down. All in all though, they are dirt cheap now and if you are using the car for just track days you can solve these issues to a degree with wider tires, better brakes and stiffer springs than scca allows for the car. So to sum things up, you will not be dissapointed in the speed the car has, but you will be dissapointed in it's handling and braking abilities in T2 trim. Still a great car for a beginner in WTW. And you will learn car control better as well - not by choice

Ojustracing

Well I have raced/hpde a street driven 01 Firebird for the last 3 yrs. I finally got a chance to race and HPDE a zo-6 vette this yr. I tested the car at Lime Rock drove both the Firebird and Vette for 2 sessions back to back at Lime Rock then got to race the car during the week in 06 One lap of America..

What I found was the firebird felt slow. The Vette felt like you were flying but the lap time's proved otherwise. My firebird was 2 sec a lap quicker than the zo-6 with the owner drving and he's got 30 plus track days to his name. If my car had had newer tire than the 23,000 mile kd on it, it would of been even quicker..

I will say the thing that Loved about the vette was the Brakes. I can just dive bomb the brakes and it stops quickly. There is a big difference in braking of over 100ft at Lime Rock on the front strech. The zo-6 was running about 125mph and the Bird just a tick quicker at 128-129mph. I will say this is a non stipped firebird with a track weight of aprox 3650lbs with driver.

If I was to continue running the car a differnet front brake system than the vette stuff im running would be in order. My firebird would also need a diet. As for the vette I drove during this yr One Lap I found out the car was not had 2 things going against that made the car handle the way it did. Loose at turn-in and loose off.. Same size Tire's all the way round 305/18 and had Hotchkis sway bars with made the car too loose for my taste. If you know the track its not that bad, but if you dont a car this loose is a accident wating to happen. Tire pressure were off, but I wasnt making the calls.

If I had to do it all over again I would choose the F-body. But I dont have unlimited funds so Price comes into play. But my JYFI my Firebird could of been bought for $15,000 grand as it was and used zo-6 is aprox 32,000... But again this is my opinion. All this info is based on steet tires.

John Oliver

Ojustracing

I dont know what is allowed in t-2 but based on what you posted all stock stuff or close to it. Yes with some changes they are fun to drive with the correct changes..

John

Oyishdog

Good info, thanks. Some of what you said is not surprising. One car I was looking at is currently prepped for NASA PTB...I would probably run in one of the NASA groups anyway which might allow me to run larger tires or better brakes.

varkwso

I have run both - so has TimZO6. The F-Body runs great, brakes terrible and has lean like you will not believe. It can be fast and a lot of fun to drive. It is a momentum car (as are most cars...) and runs the same GS wheels I run on my C5s. I would still be driving mine if it was not taken out by a minivan on the street.

Depending on the class the car came out of on what has been done to it.

jeff

Smith

I would also think about and Asedan Camaro. They are a blast and many are set up very well. They are a couple of seconds faster then T-2 but are a couple of seconds slower then T1. They are also lighter. My 1991 Camaro weights 2950 without driver, lead and fuel. We must weight 3280.

Go to www.aseden.net for a more info. These car are much more fun then T2 cars.

Philip

Tom03Z06

It really depends on what you want the end result to look like. Do you want to race an F Body in a F Body competitive class, or a Vette in a Vette competitive class or just a HPDE or TT car.

A T2 car would make a good base. Plus the up front costs of obtaing a pre-built caged car with majority of the goodies already installed being a little cheaper. plus the avoidance of the corvette tax for upgrades.

IMHO the F Body and the Vette are two different animals on the track and have to be driven as such.
Preperation levels and drivers are the equallizers. My Camaro and My Z06 are like my kids, Each is special in their own way.

Oyishdog

Ok, i just wrote out a huge response and then explorer just crashed....so to be really short, I am open to suggestions of other options. I have read the SCCA and NASA classes - no to european cars (repair costs way too high), no to spec miata, no to srf (would be cool with 50 more HP), yes to CSR/DSR but too $$$....essentially, everything that I can afford that offers more then a gerble wheel for a motor is mustang or camaro based classes......OH, and i would prefer no front wheel drive. The ultimate goal is to find a safe car that I can do HPDE's, TT, or wheel to wheel, with wheel to wheel being my end goal.

Help!

varkwso

Gee - I have come to the same conclusions..I am even looking at T4 with a Mustang GT.....

Tom03Z06

I would stick with an 4th Gen F-body LS1 platform.

RX7 KLR

SCCA gives the fbody nothing in T2 trim. You are on stock size 16X8 wheels with up to a 265 tire, stock springs and swaybars. You can do shocks and some cooling work, that is it. Dave Schotz from AZ sat on the T2 pole in 05' and just missed it in 06' with 2nd. However the fat @ss car can not run that pace for 18 laps and you will not see the top 3 at the run-offs. If you just want a car to play with at local stuff it is a great value, if you want to run natl events and win stay away.

Oyishdog

OK. well lets change the scope just a bit. What if you started with a previously prepped T2 firebird....what would you do to it/what racing series would you run? Think of the T2 as a base - has coolers/cage...the basics.

Timz06

Not knowing that much about T2 prep, except what I have read here, and having experience tracking both an 01 z06 and 95 z28 here is what I can tell you.

Stock z28, ran roebling at around 1:28, with 245 street tires. Going with race tires, I got it down around 1:26. That was a few years ago, I was running about 1:24 with the 01 z06 with the same tires.
Z28 upgraded with hotcam, headers, coil overs, koni sa shocks, corvette front brakes ran road atlanta at 1:43, ran 1:40 in the z06.
Same mods ran vir at 2:15, ran 2:12 in the z06.

Bigger cam in z28, head porting, 315's all around, gc control arms for more camber, ran 1:22 at roebling with sketchy tires. I think the car could run about 1:20 with good tires, ran about 1:19 in the vette (guessing, wasn't timed) so the car is about 1 sec behind at roebling, but with lots of mods, and about 400 rwhp, (140 or so more than stock.)

It is a fun car to drive, much less forgiving than the vette. During braking the car dives, making turning and braking a challenge. Also is much heavier, with the interior stripped (dash, door panels, windows still intact. ) the car still weighs 3400 lbs. I think this is the major hurdle to overcome.

Tim

Tourmgr1

Tim has pretty much the same experiences as I have ...one to two seconds a lap slower in a Z28 with a 430hp motor/suspension etc, vs the Z06 stock ...given the same tires. Still a lots fun to drive ...just heavy.

xsiveone

I was just watching the T2 race at the Runoffs and the Nissan 350Z looks very competitive.

I'd rather have sharp handling and good braking over raw grunt. Even though the 350Z doesn't have the low end torque of the F body, it definitely isn't a slouch. They are right around 300 hp and the weight is very similar to the F body. The handling and braking is night and day though.

varkwso

Jake and I got up at 4AM to watch the race - based on that it looks like I ought to buy the leftover 2006 STi sitting at the dealer right now - it is even in my color - white

xsiveone

Those STi's are cool. I didn't mention them because Ryan talked about rwd.

Another option is T3. I didn't mention that either because the cars are down on power. The dominant car in T3 is the Mazda RX8.

E.O.D.

I was in the car with Tim once when he ran the 1:43. Tim is an alien though, I swear he has 3 feet where the rest of us have only two.

As for the other bolded sentence, the two cars are definitely different animals. I personally have not driven either around Road Atlanta...but I've ridden in both several times (Tim's Z28 and another mutual friend's Z06). T-totally two different animals. The Z06 would definitely be easier to drive fast around a track. The center of gravity is lower, balance is better, Competitive Driving mode, etc. But there is definitely MUCH to be learned by tracking an F-bod. This is what I've learned from talking with Tim, some vette owner friends that track, and several other people that have raced both. And from riding in both around Road Atlanta first hand. As a matter of fact, that is something I would recommend you do before making up your mind. Ride shotgun in both vehicles around the same track.

Words of wisdom though. If you ride with Tim in his F-bod, go easy on the breakfast.

Oyishdog

I watched the T2 race as well...the firebirds and camaros just looked goofy compared to the 350, sti, etc. The sti could be interesting...certainly would help running in the wet!