what class would a C5Z06 T1 car fit in NASA
12-17-2008, 04:09 PM
#41
Safety Car
What IS allowed in ST2 are a million other things that can make a car faster, like suspension, brake, and aero upgrades. These are irrelevant to the weight argument, however.
12-17-2008, 04:31 PM
#42
Melting Slicks
At 3368 Aaron would have additionally gained .10 pwr/wt for being over the run for free 3200-3300 lb weight . So at 3368 he would be able to compete @8.6:1 ....meaning he would have been able to compete with 391.62 rwhp....
Over 3300 you get .05 per 50#'s and under 3200 you add .05 per 50#'s to your pwr/wt.
I typically take a hit for being under and my ST2 partner gets concessions for being over...
Over 3300 you get .05 per 50#'s and under 3200 you add .05 per 50#'s to your pwr/wt.
I typically take a hit for being under and my ST2 partner gets concessions for being over...
Last edited by RAFTRACER; 12-17-2008 at 04:44 PM.
12-17-2008, 04:58 PM
#43
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I think the good part about the internior removal is that now it will be easy for us T1 guys to "pick a weight" based on our HP. All the NASA races I've run have been around 3330 pounds at the end of the race, and with 374 at the wheels, so I was just over 8.9. With the interior out, I'll have to add ballast and can get myself at least a little closer to the 8.7, and maybe put some ballast in the right-rear trunkwell since that corner is a little light.
Plus, it will be nice to not have so much flammable stuff around me in the car.
To ScaryFast's point though, the biggest things holding back T1 cars in ST2 are all the other non weight/hp stuff that you can do in ST2 that's a no-no in T1.
Still, a well-driven and nationally fast T1 car should be able to be very competitive in just about any ST2 race.
Plus, it will be nice to not have so much flammable stuff around me in the car.
To ScaryFast's point though, the biggest things holding back T1 cars in ST2 are all the other non weight/hp stuff that you can do in ST2 that's a no-no in T1.
Still, a well-driven and nationally fast T1 car should be able to be very competitive in just about any ST2 race.
12-17-2008, 05:54 PM
#44
Le Mans Master
geez guys... a little ballast added/removed makes it easy to swap between each class.
As the mortgage refinance commercials says: "this is the biggest no-brainer in the history of the earth."
Not that I am prone to exageration or anything like that...
As the mortgage refinance commercials says: "this is the biggest no-brainer in the history of the earth."
Not that I am prone to exageration or anything like that...
12-17-2008, 06:39 PM
#45
Melting Slicks
At 3368 Aaron would have additionally gained .10 pwr/wt for being over the run for free 3200-3300 lb weight . So at 3368 he would be able to compete @8.6:1 ....meaning he would have been able to compete with 391.62 rwhp....
Over 3300 you get .05 per 50#'s and under 3200 you add .05 per 50#'s to your pwr/wt.
I typically take a hit for being under and my ST2 partner gets concessions for being over...
Over 3300 you get .05 per 50#'s and under 3200 you add .05 per 50#'s to your pwr/wt.
I typically take a hit for being under and my ST2 partner gets concessions for being over...
I could get 11 more HP by leaning the crap out of the motor, but I don't care to have a ticking time bomb.
Polys,brakes and areo would be nice in T1 but like Mikah said, NO NO NO.
12-18-2008, 08:42 AM
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Reality is that 2 of the fastest 4 ST2 cars at Nationals were T1 cars, also T1 cars have won many, many regional ST2 races and the National ST2 championship. Not only are T1 cars competitive but they seem to be dominant.
Maybe it's the people behnd the wheel??? Nah!! that's crazy talk.
Maybe it's the people behnd the wheel??? Nah!! that's crazy talk.
12-18-2008, 10:44 AM
#48
Le Mans Master
Reality is that 2 of the fastest 4 ST2 cars at Nationals were T1 cars, also T1 cars have won many, many regional ST2 races and the National ST2 championship. Not only are T1 cars competitive but they seem to be dominant.
Maybe it's the people behnd the wheel??? Nah!! that's crazy talk.
Maybe it's the people behnd the wheel??? Nah!! that's crazy talk.
You are 100% right. But it is not the cars, it is the drivers. Let me explain. But before I do, everyone, please understand that I don't think I am anything special behind the wheel of a race car. What I do others can do as well. I say this so no one takes what I am about to say as being arrogant or cocky.
When I got started in SCCA T1 the cars are very similar, and 95% C5s. Yes, some are better than others, but overall the cars were very close. If there was a lap time difference between one car/driver combination and another, it was most likely attributed to the driver and not the car.
An example is the 2005 Run Offs: I was about 3/4 of a second slower than I thought I should be. My car was fresh, so I knew it wasn't holding me back, at least not the entire amount. So I go to two guys who are ahead of me in qualifying: John Heinricy and Bill Ziegler. I ask them to view my in-car video and give me feedback. Both said I was turning into Turn One too soon and losing speed.
So, the next session I turn in at Turn One a bit later and get on the gas...voila!...a bit sooner. I carry a bit more speed thru the turn, faster than I thought I could, and surprise! my lap times got where I thought they should be. I remember the person on the radio giving me the lap time and me yelling "yeeeehawwww!" Before that lap there was no way I thought a C5 could go thru there that fast. But I was wrong. And I am highly confident I am still leaving speed thru that turn on the table.
In NASA, my sense is that if someone is slower than they should be they look to the car: maybe a better set of brakes, or aero improvements, or "whatever." Yes, those may make the car faster, but all of us need to focus on making the driver faster before focusing on the car.
That is why I tell people to get a well-preped T1 car and drive the heck out of it.
Last edited by BuckeyeZ06; 12-18-2008 at 10:58 AM.
12-18-2008, 11:31 AM
#49
Melting Slicks
Ken,
You are 100% right. But it is not the cars, it is the drivers. Let me explain. But before I do, everyone, please understand that I don't think I am anything special behind the wheel of a race car. What I do others can do as well. I say this so no one takes what I am about to say as being arrogant or cocky.
When I got started in SCCA T1 the cars are very similar, and 95% C5s. Yes, some are better than others, but overall the cars were very close. If there was a lap time difference between one car/driver combination and another, it was most likely attributed to the driver and not the car.
An example is the 2005 Run Offs: I was about 3/4 of a second slower than I thought I should be. My car was fresh, so I knew it wasn't holding me back, at least not the entire amount. So I go to two guys who are ahead of me in qualifying: John Heinricy and Bill Ziegler. I ask them to view my in-car video and give me feedback. Both said I was turning into Turn One too soon and losing speed.
So, the next session I turn in at Turn One a bit later and get on the gas...voila!...a bit sooner. I carry a bit more speed thru the turn, faster than I thought I could, and surprise! my lap times got where I thought they should be. I remember the person on the radio giving me the lap time and me yelling "yeeeehawwww!" Before that lap there was no way I thought a C5 could go thru there that fast. But I was wrong. And I am highly confident I am still leaving speed thru that turn on the table.
In NASA, my sense is that if someone is slower than they should be they look to the car: maybe a better set of brakes, or aero improvements, or "whatever." Yes, those may make the car faster, but all of us need to focus on making the driver faster before focusing on the car.
That is why I tell people to get a well-preped T1 car and drive the heck out of it.
You are 100% right. But it is not the cars, it is the drivers. Let me explain. But before I do, everyone, please understand that I don't think I am anything special behind the wheel of a race car. What I do others can do as well. I say this so no one takes what I am about to say as being arrogant or cocky.
When I got started in SCCA T1 the cars are very similar, and 95% C5s. Yes, some are better than others, but overall the cars were very close. If there was a lap time difference between one car/driver combination and another, it was most likely attributed to the driver and not the car.
An example is the 2005 Run Offs: I was about 3/4 of a second slower than I thought I should be. My car was fresh, so I knew it wasn't holding me back, at least not the entire amount. So I go to two guys who are ahead of me in qualifying: John Heinricy and Bill Ziegler. I ask them to view my in-car video and give me feedback. Both said I was turning into Turn One too soon and losing speed.
So, the next session I turn in at Turn One a bit later and get on the gas...voila!...a bit sooner. I carry a bit more speed thru the turn, faster than I thought I could, and surprise! my lap times got where I thought they should be. I remember the person on the radio giving me the lap time and me yelling "yeeeehawwww!" Before that lap there was no way I thought a C5 could go thru there that fast. But I was wrong. And I am highly confident I am still leaving speed thru that turn on the table.
In NASA, my sense is that if someone is slower than they should be they look to the car: maybe a better set of brakes, or aero improvements, or "whatever." Yes, those may make the car faster, but all of us need to focus on making the driver faster before focusing on the car.
That is why I tell people to get a well-preped T1 car and drive the heck out of it.
Well said David!Remember our national race at Nelson's in 07? I just out qualified you by thousands of a second and our 40 minute race was door to door, bumper to bumper to the checker for one of the closest T1 national finishes at Nelson's.
That tells how good the T1 Vipers/Corvettes are matched and we both drove the CHIT out of them.
Aaron
12-18-2008, 12:59 PM
#50
Safety Car
In NASA, my sense is that if someone is slower than they should be they look to the car: maybe a better set of brakes, or aero improvements, or "whatever." Yes, those may make the car faster, but all of us need to focus on making the driver faster before focusing on the car.
Although it's definately easy to see that NOW. I was that guy a few years ago, when I thought running 1:48 at Mid-Ohio (in the same car I have now) was fast because I beat a bunch of HPDE'ers in Porsches.
12-18-2008, 01:21 PM
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Well said David!Remember our national race at Nelson's in 07? I just out qualified you by thousands of a second and our 40 minute race was door to door, bumper to bumper to the checker for one of the closest T1 national finishes at Nelson's.
That tells how good the T1 Vipers/Corvettes are matched and we both drove the CHIT out of them.
Aaron
I'll be running with you NASA guys next year some, probably in ST2. Although not in a Corvette, imagine something more square, silver, and luxurious. . . . . . .
12-18-2008, 02:09 PM
#52
Melting Slicks
Good to hear brother, would that car happen to be a CADDY?
Hope to get out to a few NASA events next year myself.
12-18-2008, 03:40 PM
#53
Le Mans Master
We have a couple of the Grand AM CTS's that run with us in the Southeast and Mid Atlantic regions of NASA.
12-19-2008, 10:16 AM
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Ken,
You are 100% right. But it is not the cars, it is the drivers. Let me explain. But before I do, everyone, please understand that I don't think I am anything special behind the wheel of a race car. What I do others can do as well. I say this so no one takes what I am about to say as being arrogant or cocky.
When I got started in SCCA T1 the cars are very similar, and 95% C5s. Yes, some are better than others, but overall the cars were very close. If there was a lap time difference between one car/driver combination and another, it was most likely attributed to the driver and not the car.
An example is the 2005 Run Offs: I was about 3/4 of a second slower than I thought I should be. My car was fresh, so I knew it wasn't holding me back, at least not the entire amount. So I go to two guys who are ahead of me in qualifying: John Heinricy and Bill Ziegler. I ask them to view my in-car video and give me feedback. Both said I was turning into Turn One too soon and losing speed.
So, the next session I turn in at Turn One a bit later and get on the gas...voila!...a bit sooner. I carry a bit more speed thru the turn, faster than I thought I could, and surprise! my lap times got where I thought they should be. I remember the person on the radio giving me the lap time and me yelling "yeeeehawwww!" Before that lap there was no way I thought a C5 could go thru there that fast. But I was wrong. And I am highly confident I am still leaving speed thru that turn on the table.
In NASA, my sense is that if someone is slower than they should be they look to the car: maybe a better set of brakes, or aero improvements, or "whatever." Yes, those may make the car faster, but all of us need to focus on making the driver faster before focusing on the car.
That is why I tell people to get a well-preped T1 car and drive the heck out of it.
You are 100% right. But it is not the cars, it is the drivers. Let me explain. But before I do, everyone, please understand that I don't think I am anything special behind the wheel of a race car. What I do others can do as well. I say this so no one takes what I am about to say as being arrogant or cocky.
When I got started in SCCA T1 the cars are very similar, and 95% C5s. Yes, some are better than others, but overall the cars were very close. If there was a lap time difference between one car/driver combination and another, it was most likely attributed to the driver and not the car.
An example is the 2005 Run Offs: I was about 3/4 of a second slower than I thought I should be. My car was fresh, so I knew it wasn't holding me back, at least not the entire amount. So I go to two guys who are ahead of me in qualifying: John Heinricy and Bill Ziegler. I ask them to view my in-car video and give me feedback. Both said I was turning into Turn One too soon and losing speed.
So, the next session I turn in at Turn One a bit later and get on the gas...voila!...a bit sooner. I carry a bit more speed thru the turn, faster than I thought I could, and surprise! my lap times got where I thought they should be. I remember the person on the radio giving me the lap time and me yelling "yeeeehawwww!" Before that lap there was no way I thought a C5 could go thru there that fast. But I was wrong. And I am highly confident I am still leaving speed thru that turn on the table.
In NASA, my sense is that if someone is slower than they should be they look to the car: maybe a better set of brakes, or aero improvements, or "whatever." Yes, those may make the car faster, but all of us need to focus on making the driver faster before focusing on the car.
That is why I tell people to get a well-preped T1 car and drive the heck out of it.
Personally I think wide open rules like NASA ST & SU really hurt the development of a driver. I would never recommend anyone start racing in such a class (even though I did). It is so important to focus on the driver like you said, the more variables you add like adjustable shocks, springs, wing angles ect the harder it is to figure out what is wrong when most of the time it is your driving. Case in point TTA cars were running in the 33s at Mid-Ohio in both 07 & 08 and there were only 2 ST2 cars in 07 and 2 ST2 cars in 08 that turned 33s.
To those that don't understand my fastest lap in my ST2 car is only .2 yes .2 seconds faster than my fastest lap in a TTA car (almost stock Z06) and some my argue I had better tires on my ST2 car (hooser A6 295/335 vs Hankook 275 square).
If my car sells I can't wait to get back to focusing on my driving and not trying to figure out what is wrong with the car.
12-19-2008, 04:49 PM
#56
Le Mans Master
Well said Dave & that last comment from me was sarcasm as you probably know.
Personally I think wide open rules like NASA ST & SU really hurt the development of a driver. I would never recommend anyone start racing in such a class (even though I did). It is so important to focus on the driver like you said, the more variables you add like adjustable shocks, springs, wing angles ect the harder it is to figure out what is wrong when most of the time it is your driving. Case in point TTA cars were running in the 33s at Mid-Ohio in both 07 & 08 and there were only 2 ST2 cars in 07 and 2 ST2 cars in 08 that turned 33s.
To those that don't understand my fastest lap in my ST2 car is only .2 yes .2 seconds faster than my fastest lap in a TTA car (almost stock Z06) and some my argue I had better tires on my ST2 car (hooser A6 295/335 vs Hankook 275 square).
If my car sells I can't wait to get back to focusing on my driving and not trying to figure out what is wrong with the car.
Personally I think wide open rules like NASA ST & SU really hurt the development of a driver. I would never recommend anyone start racing in such a class (even though I did). It is so important to focus on the driver like you said, the more variables you add like adjustable shocks, springs, wing angles ect the harder it is to figure out what is wrong when most of the time it is your driving. Case in point TTA cars were running in the 33s at Mid-Ohio in both 07 & 08 and there were only 2 ST2 cars in 07 and 2 ST2 cars in 08 that turned 33s.
To those that don't understand my fastest lap in my ST2 car is only .2 yes .2 seconds faster than my fastest lap in a TTA car (almost stock Z06) and some my argue I had better tires on my ST2 car (hooser A6 295/335 vs Hankook 275 square).
If my car sells I can't wait to get back to focusing on my driving and not trying to figure out what is wrong with the car.
I firmly beleive that our laps times would have been faster if they had to be. What I mean is that during the dry qualifying session on Saturday, all I needed to do was finish second. I ended up passing you, Ken, for the lead on the last lap. But I wasn't running all out to do so. You? It is amazing how much slower we all go when we are driving with our mirrors!
I once told a young driver to not worry about that big bad red Viper in his mirrors and jsut focus on what is ahead of him...damn he was impossible to pass.The Sunday race I only did what I needed to do to win the race. I am confident a low 32, maybe a 31 (in fact I think a good driver can lay down a 30 in qualifying trim) is in the car and me. But the goal is to win a race by going as slow as possible.
Lastly, two of my SCCA buddies have been on here saying much the same thing...focus on the driver and not the car. Joe Gaudette and Chris Ingle are two fine guys and racers who know what they are doing. They tried making this point in other threads but were unable to successfuly do so.
Nevertheless, their point, my point, and now your point is "it's the driver." All those mods just confuse the driver's development. Not too many people can do what a Danny Popp (or is that Poop?
) can do, improve both at the same time. I know I can't; don't even try.
12-19-2008, 05:08 PM
#58
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Well, I am glad people recieved my message in the spirit it was intended. Sometimes thw written word comes across as so harsh and often that is not the intention fo the writer.
I firmly beleive that our laps times would have been faster if they had to be. What I mean is that during the dry qualifying session on Saturday, all I needed to do was finish second. I ended up passing you, Ken, for the lead on the last lap. But I wasn't running all out to do so. You? It is amazing how much slower we all go when we are driving with our mirrors! I once told a young driver to not worry about that big bad red Viper in his mirrors and jsut focus on what is ahead of him...damn he was impossible to pass.
The Sunday race I only did what I needed to do to win the race. I am confident a low 32, maybe a 31 (in fact I think a good driver can lay down a 30 in qualifying trim) is in the car and me. But the goal is to win a race by going as slow as possible.
Lastly, two of my SCCA buddies have been on here saying much the same thing...focus on the driver and not the car. Joe Gaudette and Chris Ingle are two fine guys and racers who know what they are doing. They tried making this point in other threads but were unable to successfuly do so.
Nevertheless, their point, my point, and now your point is "it's the driver." All those mods just confuse the driver's development. Not too many people can do what a Danny Popp (or is that Poop?) can do, improve both at the same time. I know I can't; don't even try.
I firmly beleive that our laps times would have been faster if they had to be. What I mean is that during the dry qualifying session on Saturday, all I needed to do was finish second. I ended up passing you, Ken, for the lead on the last lap. But I wasn't running all out to do so. You? It is amazing how much slower we all go when we are driving with our mirrors!
I once told a young driver to not worry about that big bad red Viper in his mirrors and jsut focus on what is ahead of him...damn he was impossible to pass.The Sunday race I only did what I needed to do to win the race. I am confident a low 32, maybe a 31 (in fact I think a good driver can lay down a 30 in qualifying trim) is in the car and me. But the goal is to win a race by going as slow as possible.
Lastly, two of my SCCA buddies have been on here saying much the same thing...focus on the driver and not the car. Joe Gaudette and Chris Ingle are two fine guys and racers who know what they are doing. They tried making this point in other threads but were unable to successfuly do so.
Nevertheless, their point, my point, and now your point is "it's the driver." All those mods just confuse the driver's development. Not too many people can do what a Danny Popp (or is that Poop?
) can do, improve both at the same time. I know I can't; don't even try.It is true that W2W is a little different mentality than say TT, I really was driving the car hard maybe to hard for a car I wasn't comfortable in yet. I'll spend some time TTing the car this year so I can really get a feel for it. I really need to work on the driver again this year, I get rattled to easy and drive in my mirrors to much. I that dry qualifying race I had the field by 20 cars lengths or more after the first last and was turn 1:37s for the first two laps every time I crossed the finish line and looked that the timer I was getting more and more aggravated causing me to over drive the car more and more. Maybe it was the fact that at that point I think I had more time in Rita in the rain as I did in the dry or maybe it was just my focus. This year my goal is to keep focus, hit my marks consistantly and pay way less attention to the other cars.
Last edited by L98Terror; 12-19-2008 at 05:13 PM.
12-19-2008, 06:15 PM
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I will add some sort of data acquisition as soon as funds permit, but I'll probably only use it for post-race analysis.
12-19-2008, 07:23 PM
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Interesting for me to see you mention this, Ken. I don't have any kind of in-car data or timing at the moment, and have been shopping around. But, there is a big part of me that believes that I would react the same way in the heat of battle as you describe here. My crew chief (lovely wife) calls my lap times when Qualifying, but only under a certain limit when it's obvious I'm shooting for a hot lap. In a race, I specifically ask her not to time me because I just don't wanna know. I'll drive the car as fast as I can, or as fast as I need to, and whatever that time is - it is!
I will add some sort of data acquisition as soon as funds permit, but I'll probably only use it for post-race analysis.
I will add some sort of data acquisition as soon as funds permit, but I'll probably only use it for post-race analysis.
I found it helpful in qualifying also, if I know what other cars car run I normally set a goal and once I run a lap that will put me up front I pull off rather than fight traffic and take a chance at breaking or wrecking.
During a race, in theory I would like to have the lap times of the person running me down (assuming I'm in 1st) called into me and I can watch my own lap times in car. In reality it is currently just adding to my distractions, maybe when I get a full season under my belt maybe this stuff will be more helpful.