Newb getting alignment
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 9
From: Charlotte, NC
Newb getting alignment
I've never road raced or autocrossed a car before but on March 10th I'm heading to Carolina Motorsports Park for my first road course day.
I have a 3-year alignment deal at Tire Kingdom that I wanted to take advantage of but wanted to run the specs by some of you guys first. I derived these specs after searching on this board.
I'm running stock ZO6 wheels, 275 up front and 295 out back. ZO6 sways and springs with Bilstein Sport shocks. Car is lowered about an inch.
-2.8 degrees camber front
-1.7 degrees camber rear
nearly zero-toe front (.05 out),
1/4" total rear toe-in (.025)
+7.0 degrees caster
This is a weekend car so not too worried about uneven tire wear.
Thanks!
I have a 3-year alignment deal at Tire Kingdom that I wanted to take advantage of but wanted to run the specs by some of you guys first. I derived these specs after searching on this board.
I'm running stock ZO6 wheels, 275 up front and 295 out back. ZO6 sways and springs with Bilstein Sport shocks. Car is lowered about an inch.
-2.8 degrees camber front
-1.7 degrees camber rear
nearly zero-toe front (.05 out),
1/4" total rear toe-in (.025)
+7.0 degrees caster
This is a weekend car so not too worried about uneven tire wear.
Thanks!
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 2
From: New York NY
Check out these specs from Pfadt for a good starting point for your alignment.
http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-c...-alignment.pdf
http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-c...-alignment.pdf
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,487
Likes: 4
From: WA
you may not be able to get that kind of camber without modifications i.e. further lowering the car or taking out washers from upper control arms (if you have any).
anything over -1.5 deg front and -1 deg rear should work fine for you.
anything over -1.5 deg front and -1 deg rear should work fine for you.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,520
Likes: 3
From: Redwood City CA
I would think that'd be too much rear camber, and I wouldn't run that much front camber with a street tire, either. I've been really happy with -1.8 front and -1.2 rear for my dual-use car. I'd be tempted to cut rear toe-in back to 1/8", too. I run 1/16" but have poly bushings.
Running too much negative camber on thin tires can sacrifice grip rather than add it. Especially in the rear. Plus with street tires you may not be able to generate enough lateral Gs to need near that negative camber.
Just my opinion... I'm on 275+305 Toyo R888s with my alignment and the grip and tire wear are good.
Running too much negative camber on thin tires can sacrifice grip rather than add it. Especially in the rear. Plus with street tires you may not be able to generate enough lateral Gs to need near that negative camber.
Just my opinion... I'm on 275+305 Toyo R888s with my alignment and the grip and tire wear are good.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 9
From: Charlotte, NC
Okay, so it sounds like something near the Pfadt alignment is where I should be:
Front min max
Camber (deg) -1.7
Caster (deg) 7.0
Toe -1/16" 0
Rear
Camber (deg) -1.0
Toe -1/8" -1/16"
That's why I wanted to ask here before I did anything!
Thanks,
Front min max
Camber (deg) -1.7
Caster (deg) 7.0
Toe -1/16" 0
Rear
Camber (deg) -1.0
Toe -1/8" -1/16"
That's why I wanted to ask here before I did anything!
Thanks,
Safety Car
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,520
Likes: 3
From: Redwood City CA
Yeah. Those numbers look good to me. Randy@DRM convinced me in to trying a smidge of toe-in up front rather than toe-out and I've liked it a lot... maybe 1/32" toe-in? (Que Ackerman speech from, well, everybody.)
I know you have a lifetime alignment deal, but will they actually set the alignment *exactly* like you ask?
You may also want to look at doing between 0" and 1/2" rake (higher in the rear) measured at the jacking puck holes in the frame rails. And getting things corner weighted would be good.
I spent a bunch of time and money chasing things and if I had it all to do again I would have started with: alignment, ride height/rake, corner weights. Then I would have figured out what I wanted to change.
I know you have a lifetime alignment deal, but will they actually set the alignment *exactly* like you ask?
You may also want to look at doing between 0" and 1/2" rake (higher in the rear) measured at the jacking puck holes in the frame rails. And getting things corner weighted would be good.
I spent a bunch of time and money chasing things and if I had it all to do again I would have started with: alignment, ride height/rake, corner weights. Then I would have figured out what I wanted to change.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 9
From: Charlotte, NC
I'll have to check around for a local place that would do the corner weighting.
I've thought about the rake as well and tried to keep the rear a bit higher...but ultimately I don't know the best method of measuring the height of the car. You said measure at the jacking points?
This is going to sound dumb, but what tool do you use to measure? Kind of hard to get an accurate reading with measuring tape when we're talking about 1/4 and 1/8 of inches.
Thanks again!
I've thought about the rake as well and tried to keep the rear a bit higher...but ultimately I don't know the best method of measuring the height of the car. You said measure at the jacking points?
This is going to sound dumb, but what tool do you use to measure? Kind of hard to get an accurate reading with measuring tape when we're talking about 1/4 and 1/8 of inches.
Thanks again!
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Safety Car
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,520
Likes: 3
From: Redwood City CA
There're a bunch of ride height gauges that shops use, but I've found I can get pretty darn close with a straight edge to get out from under the car and another ruler to check the height.
Some people will use the fender opening height, but it just kills me to trust bodywork.
Some people will use the fender opening height, but it just kills me to trust bodywork.
TOO much rear camber. Rear - 1.2/-1.3 toed in .o5 deg or .10 deg rear. Front - 2. 00 / 0 toe & 3-7 caster. My 2 cts.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 12,438
Likes: 919
From: CONCORD NC
btw, your toe numbers actually don't make sense. 1/4" is around 0.8deg.....what is the 0.025???? Front toe should be OEM, around 0.1deg out or 1/32" for street/track usage. More is fine for track only
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 9
From: Charlotte, NC
Thanks David, good to know a local place can handle the corner balancing. That being said, I have a long way to go as a driver before I get into those nuances.
How much do you charge for corner weighting?
I wanted to follow-up on this thread to post my final alignment specs. The tech said he couldn't get the camber I wanted in front because it was throwing off the caster. I had read that might be an issue, so I wasn't concerned about it.
FRONT LEFT RIGHT
Camber -1.5 -1.4
Caster 6.6 6.6
Toe .02 .02
REAR
Camber -1.0 -1.0
Toe .07 .08
Thrust angle: 0.01
On the drive home, I felt like the feedback from the steering wheel was more telling of my grip level and what was happening at the contact patches (tire and pavement). In short, it felt pretty good and predictable, making me want to explore the adhesion limits. Before I had little feedback from the car and its handling capabilities, making me uneasy about its handling limits and when I had reached them.
How much do you charge for corner weighting?
I wanted to follow-up on this thread to post my final alignment specs. The tech said he couldn't get the camber I wanted in front because it was throwing off the caster. I had read that might be an issue, so I wasn't concerned about it.
FRONT LEFT RIGHT
Camber -1.5 -1.4
Caster 6.6 6.6
Toe .02 .02
REAR
Camber -1.0 -1.0
Toe .07 .08
Thrust angle: 0.01
On the drive home, I felt like the feedback from the steering wheel was more telling of my grip level and what was happening at the contact patches (tire and pavement). In short, it felt pretty good and predictable, making me want to explore the adhesion limits. Before I had little feedback from the car and its handling capabilities, making me uneasy about its handling limits and when I had reached them.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
From: Houston Texas
I would say since you have never auto-x or road raced before just leave the alignment stock or if your doing one anyway go with mild settings, especially for street tires.
Your gonna be the limiting factor not the car. Its amazing how much you improve after just after a couple weekends when you are new. You will cut way more time off just by learning how to drive well then you will by modding your car.
Once you get better then you can start making setup changes and upgrades.
Just my .02
Your gonna be the limiting factor not the car. Its amazing how much you improve after just after a couple weekends when you are new. You will cut way more time off just by learning how to drive well then you will by modding your car.
Once you get better then you can start making setup changes and upgrades.
Just my .02
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 9
From: Charlotte, NC
I agree. It wasn't until the end of the day that I had a good understanding of the correct driving line and how to place my car on it.
I would really like to know what my initial lap times were compared to my ending times, but this was a DE so no lap times were reported (that I know of anyway).
My thoughts for the alignment were:
I needed an alignment to ensure my car would drive like it was designed to.
While I'm getting the alignment, I might as well have it help the car handle better.
I will also add that after the alignment, my tactile sense of the steering wheel provided a lot more feedback as to what the front tires were doing and their state of grip. This was very helpful on the track.
After yesterday, I now know I need a better brake pad because the ones I used were eaily overwhelmed. (I don't know the brand, they came free with my rotors which should have been a clue as to their performance....prior to heading to the track with them)
I would really like to know what my initial lap times were compared to my ending times, but this was a DE so no lap times were reported (that I know of anyway).
My thoughts for the alignment were:
I needed an alignment to ensure my car would drive like it was designed to.
While I'm getting the alignment, I might as well have it help the car handle better.
I will also add that after the alignment, my tactile sense of the steering wheel provided a lot more feedback as to what the front tires were doing and their state of grip. This was very helpful on the track.
After yesterday, I now know I need a better brake pad because the ones I used were eaily overwhelmed. (I don't know the brand, they came free with my rotors which should have been a clue as to their performance....prior to heading to the track with them)
