John Shiels

good to hear my tape stopped after the accident.

BuckeyeZ06

I did one HPDE in 2003 with a more-or-less C5Z and recognized the dangers, even with my limited skills the speeds were way too much for the safety equipment on the car.

I sold that beauty and bought my first T1 racer and haven't looked back since. I have crashed all three of my T1/STO cars are very high speeds, and have walked away each time (knock on wood).

I have posted on this site and others that people are crazy for doing HPDEs at the speeds they are driving. 600 HP cars and no additional safety equipment? Not for me!

W2W racing is, IMO, safer than HPDE because of the equipment required. HPDEs don't ask for much, and require even less. The speeds new cars go these days point to a re-evaluation of these rules (or lack of rules).

Good point, John.

Cloaked323

I don't have a cage, at the time I inquired no one made one because of the C6 Z06 frame, you attach anything to it without the possibility of damage.
Now that a few people make them I found that they are difficult to installed which makes them really expensive when it comes to out the door cost. Additionally who wants to have a cage in their street car. I had a roll bar in my Mustang and the eliminated the back seat not because of room, it was unsafe to have the steel bars near a passengers head.
A roll bar in my car is an option that I'm exploring but I'm not going to stop attending HPDE until I get one. I have belts will buy a "Rage R3 hybrid, which tests significantly better than a HANS and works with stock belts" to quote RX-Ben. You can die skiing I think you know where this is going. Stay safe

96solo

It isn't if you hit the wall, but when!

After two years in TT with NASA, I decided the same thing that John did. This is the question to all:

How much is your life or injury worth to you and your family if you are hurt?

My $3,000 Roll Cage is cheap cost of protection! Here's a picture of
L'tl Blu' being built a few months ago. Work courtesy of Precision Chassis Works.

longdaddy

if this is your hobby/sport and not a one-off experience, it is not a matter of "if" you will crash hard one day, it's just a "when".

I run heavy 4pt roll bar, full containment seat, 5pt and HANS, multiple reliability mods, water instead of a/f etc etc and I do get nervous on some tracks not having a full on race car setup for safety reasons.

Short-Throw

You all know how I feel:






There are of course no guarantees but we can lessen the odds of getting hurt by making safety the first dollars spent and increasing the chance of walking away from a mishap, our fault or not.


Mike

Loco Vette

SouthernSon

Excellent point! However, it is worse than that. The force of a head on by two in opposite directions is actually quadrupled; two cars at 50mph head on is the equivalent of one car into a wall at 200mph. Notwithstanding the energy absorption of the bodies, of course.

to wit,

The kinetic energy equation is:
Kinetic energy = (½) M V²
in which M = mass
V = velocity

As speed increases, so does the amount of kinetic energy. However, because the equation has a velocity-squared term, the kinetic energy increase is exponential compared to the speed increase. For example, when the velocity or speed doubles, the kinetic energy quadruples, so even a small velocity increase results in a disproportionate increase in kinetic energy. Therefore, a 5 mph speed increase from 30 mph to 35 mph increases the kinetic energy by one-third.

donymo

You can put every piece of safety equipment, HANS, cage, etc. in your car AND STILL die. Happened this year.

http://www.roadraceautox.com/showpos...&postcount=115

Slalom4me

Could I see the math on that, please.

.

BERETTA

I have done around 18 track days so far, I have had a Mustang in my rearview sideways when I was going into a right hand turn, a Camaro with brake problems just miss me right before a left hand turn. Either one of these could have turned out bad, fortunately no contact was made.
After 8 track days, I made the decision to cage my car, I have also put in a fire supression system, 3 nozzles on me 3 on the engine. A very good Jet Pilot type harness, a Hans, and a good helmet etc. I have a window net in the car but cannot use it for HPDE due to point bys. I would feel safer if I could.
Even with all the changes I have done to this car safety wise, I still know that you can be seriously hurt or killed in one of these cars.
IMO I do not think our seats are safe enough, look at the seats in Nascar, they allow very little head movement side to side and most likely fit the driver like a glove. like Drivinhard said that side impact into a wall is a very scary senario.
When I was at Road Atlanta in June I never went over 130-135 on the back straight even though I know my car is capable of 145? I am not in TT's yet, so is there is a reason to push it to the max in HPDE?
Are we crazy? I think so

longdaddy

yes. NASA (as in space agency) takes more safety precautions for one lift-off than all of us here in all of our driving careers combined, and yet sometimes they lose people too. what exactly is your point?

SouthernSon

Actually, I slipped a cog there. The force is 4 times the car going 50mph in the wall. Which is the same as the car doing 100 into the wall generating 4 times the kinetic energy.

longdaddy

check your physics. the force your car and your body will have to withstand from crashing into a car head on going at the same speed (V) you're at is exactly the same as crashing into immovable object at the speed V.

edit: mythbusters did it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-JGIYLZZUg&NR=1

Slalom4me

Mythbusters - Crash Force part 1 of 2

Mythbusters - Crash Force part 2 of 2

.

SouthernSon

The force would be shared by the two vehicles, true. However, the kinetic energy is quadrupled so a lot a contingencies would determine to what extent the two would share the energy dissipation. 2 cars of the same make, weight and square into each other would be closer to speed of one into a wall. However, t boned on driver side would not be shared equally I would fear by the driver against the door. His body would be one of the first to experience the first few milliseconds of kinetic absorption. Yeah, not really absolute is it??

bags142

So I will ask this question...

would you rather have ANY car doing a HPDE have a full cage and supporting equipment? Or just 1? Or none?

Does any of this apply to auto-x?

And I track my vette, and I don't have a cage and no plans to install one. It's not my DD, but I do road trips in it as well as drive it when I want to feel pretty. But, a cage won't work for it.

So should I buy something else and cage it and stop tracking the vette?

And I will say this... if you have been on a major interstate through a major city, you have been at at least the same risk as any HPDE. 6-8 lanes wide.. 60-80 mph... solid concreate barrier on 1 side... 10-30 cars to potentailly run into you or you to run into... big rigs, dump trucks, buses, trailers, etc... , and what about the other cars doing 90+ ??

And I get the be safe as possible aspect. But, at some point, you have to understand what you are getting yourself into. And in that case, I have zero interest in w2w racing. And I think anyone who does that is nuts.. but if it is something you wanna do, have at it!

And I am not going to change anyone's mind, just as some of the others in this thread won't have their minds changed... but I just wanted to throw out my 2cents

SouthernSon

On another note of safety, have there been any adverse incidents using air bags with full face helmets as opposed to open face? I heard someone express concern with the full face and air bags at the last track day. My Z has no cage but I do have air bags still in place.

longdaddy

you should do whatever you feel you need to do after researching the risks. consult with anyone who depends on you for their financial security as well.

I disagree, my home track has 150-160mph kink where we lose at least a couple of cars every year. some roll. I know someone who rolled 6 times. He was doing this corner at 160mph. He had a roll bar and walked. Try that with a factory roll hoop and A pillar. nothing on my commute comes close to that level of risk unless someone if being outright homicidal/suicidal out there.

longdaddy

it does not quadruple. you add the energy so it is v-squared + v-squared. not (v + v) squared. come on man, math does not get any more basic than this!