rbl

However, you failed to say if you removed the kill switch from the circuit which was suggested. What you have done here is a waste of time electrically.

Jumper it and reconfigure that (or whatever you did there) back to original and see if the issue resolves. If it doe, then you have a wiring problem. If it does not then it is a new issue and/or in the process something got smoked.

geerookie

Like I asked in a previous post. You need to remove the kill switch and put it back to factory (cables etc.) in order to confirm something else didn't fail.
Just jumpering around the kill switch doesn't tell us anything.
Also I need to know exactly which wire you spliced for the kill switch and exactly where you put it in the circuit.
As stated earlier you are back feeding a circuit because of where you inserted the kill switch. When you go to use it you are not getting the proper circuit powered and it doesn't have enough current. It is because a relay or transistor is not providing the current needed not because of a weak battery or improper cable size.

geerookie

It is possible but seriously unlikely the BCM or ECM is damaged.
The theft deterent circuit is fuel and start. If that was activated he couldn't start with the jumpered relay and you wouldn't get the clicking..

msracing

ok guys still have the problem,, we have changed the bcm, the fuse panel under the hood, new starter, today a new stater switch, check all the major wiring,, and on and on.. but we still get the same result.. Click click click..every time time you push the start button..
mind you it was running fine even after installing the roll cage... started it at the welding shop , loaded in the trailer, started in the trailer drove in into the shop... relocated the battery to the rear and out of know were we have the clicking problem.. we reversed back to the stock battery location just for ***** and giggles.... same thing....click click click... we can manually turn over the motor by doing it from the starter relay and the car starts for a brief minute and shuts right off... i don't know what else to do... HELP ANY SUGGESTION ARE much WELCOME I already missed out on 2 weekend on the track and if i don't find out whats going on now it looks like i will miss out on this come weekend at Homestead....

thanks in advance...

Regards...Manny Sanchez
305-333-4445

rbl

Why do you continue to ask for help if you won't take the advice already offered instead of just changing parts?

msracing

Not sure why you would say that as i have already done everything suggested and I have even a GM tech that works at a local GM/Cadillac dealer and all he specialize in electrical and computers.. we have changed these parts because he was not able to communicate to these item,,, for some reason now he is able communicate but when he push the start button the starter clicks many time and what he see on the scanner is that it also flashes on and off like its loosing power... we have bypass the kill switch, we have gone back to original battery at stock location...

all ground have been checked the only thing that has been cut was a small plug for the seats..and i believe its for a seat airbag sensor they have been unplugs as i installed a racing seat a while back .. the rest of the seat wiring is intact and i believe that feeds the power seat ,,, i just zipped tie them out of the way.....

i know that there some experts out there that may have come up with this problem before... maybe not.. who knows...

so rbi do you have any suggestion,,, i have take there Advice we have just not hit the nail on the head yet...

Manny

rbl

I think this is the first time you have said you bypassed the kill switch ... correct? You have ignored that from every other post ... I just re-read it. See Post #16.

Moving the battery is a waste of time as others have said. It is not a battery location issue. Either the kill switch have been wired wrong or a circuit is fried.

Step 1.) Identify when the problem first occurred. Then back up one step. You sort of represented this to be the introduction of the kill switch but you intermix kill switch with battery relocation so it is not clear.

Bypassing the kill switch and removing it (electrically) by reconnecting the original wiring as it was are two different things.

You were asked what type kill switch you used but did not reply. Some have NO and some have NC contacts ... that is important as you probably already know.

Confirm that you have put the original wiring back as it was before you installed the kill sw.

Step 2.) Did you cross connect the other wires at the kill switch (not the battery leads)?

Step 3.) What kill switch did you use and how many poles does it have? Two battery and 2-4 others .... what do they go to?

Do you have a schematic?

msracing

OK rbi here we go... here are some answer to your questions

1. the car had just got a new cage put in we have gutted the cars interior and set it up were it would run and drive.. last time we ran the car was the day we brought it out of the trailer and into my shop... everything was running fine.. we re installed the dash and to finish it all off we removed the battery made new battery wires to the OMP 2 pole kill switch and from the Kill switch back to the new Braile Battery that we located in the rear.. we then made new Battery ground cable from the battery to the main frame.. we also made a new battery ground cable from the block to the main frame next to the motor at the stock ground location. at that point we started having problems .. We went to start the car to put it on the trailer and wamm the click click click started... at first i thought it was a bad cable, maybe battery low, kill switch not making good contact.. and so on.. we have re installed all the cables and battery back to stock location...click click click...

2. we have already check that its not a kill switch issue as it not even on at this time.

3. we were using a OMP kill switch 2 pole

4 yeas we have schematic my buddy the GM/tech gave me them.

the more i look and hear from you guys it looks like there maybe some power feeding back into the system when we start it... i can start it at the relay but will will un for a few second and then shuts down...

RBI what do you think any suggestions...

rbl

OK ... that is clear now. Then you are saying that the Kill SW is a simple on/off for the battery power only ... check - that is not an issue.

Restored battery to original location with original cables so that is not the issue - check.

BTW: it is almost impossible to accurately measure a high resistance on one of those cables because it will not show up even if only one small wire is connected but it won't carry any load.

Recap: so car is fine - install dash/battery/switch - car is broken.

Restore kill sw - car still broken
Restore battery - car still broken

What is left?

In complete dark lay under the dash if you can or use a mirror and have someone try to start the car .... see anything? If not, then if it were me I would pull the dash back out, at least partially, even if it is a real pain and you should find your problem.

Look at the wiring from the start switch. Pinched someplace under a screw or clip?

Something apparently is being shorted when you hit the start button.

I would also be interested in putting an amp meter in the circuit feeding the start sw to look at the current draw when it is engaged.

A good visual with the dash exposed might reveal a lot ... the car may even start too. If there is excessive current draw I would look for signs of heat or arcing.

rbl

I think Manny has lost interest or found his problem

msracing

well guys, after some more searching and looking at every wire that we can get our hands on.. did some back tracking like RBL suggested .. but we still had the problem..

just for ***** and giggles i told my buddy to hit the stater button and i was standing next to the fuse block and we had the starter relay uncovered ,,, when i heard a few clicks i reach down and held the relay wroommm the car starts... OK that was great because when we attempted to manually start from the relay it would start and turn off right away.. so now we have the car running ...we attempted it a few time and what we found is that if you hit the start button and it clicked once it would start and turn off ... but if you hit the start button and let it click a few time and then you hit ( squeeze) the relay it would start and run normally...

now we have a car the runs.. it may take to people to start it but we can get it to run...

well it gets better...just for ***** and giggles first i ran a ground back to the battery from the block... ( adding a extra direct line) for extra ground.... no change .. click click click...

My buddy told me to again just for *****.. why dont we add a extra positive lead from the battery to the fuse block under the hood.. so we did ... he hit the starter but and wroommm it started right up .
we were going crazy !!!! we had done this before when we first found had the problem,,, it didnt work then.. but for some reason it works now

now we remove the ground form the block to the battery and started the car and its starts fine.... so the grounding of the car seems to be perfect...

if we remove the positive cable from the battery.. it will not start but if we place the cable back on the battery it starts fine...

now keep in mind that we have the battery in the rear, power is running thru 1ga battery cable to a OMP Racing Kill switch ,1ga cable from the kill switch to the post on the starter..and a feed coming from the starter to the fuse panel under the hood...

what we know now is that there must be some problem with the marine tin coated 1ga cable or one of the connectors that we soldered in ,,,maybe a cold weld who know ... so we did a few more test ..and have re heated all the cable ends and even removed to check them .. re heated with and placed fresh new soldered ..

its gotten late as we been with this deal now for a while and today we put in a late night .. i still have to say that i haven't found or pinpointed the bad cable or if its just that the cable is to long and its losing amps..as we tested and it has the voltage...just seem like when the started pulls the amps and voltage drop enough to make the ecm and bcm go nuts and that is were the clicking comes from..

here is what really has me stumpped .. we re installed the original battery back at the stock location with the stock cable and it clicked the same....but yet now we have the battery in the back and just by running this cable its all working

Well this car is not completely fix .. I have to instruct at homestead this weekend for Chin Motorsports and we did a temp fix by adding a second 4 ga battery cable from the battery to the fuse block under the hood.. its starts and runs great... put the problem is still not fix ...

when i get the car back home next weekend i plan on making a new set of 1/0 ga copper cables and fit them to the car... maybe this ill work...

see you at the track......Manny

rbl

So you bypassed the kill switch with another + battery lead and the car is not broken? So, the kill switch combined with the "new" cables turns out to be the problem?

Solder is a very poor conductor (as in zip). If you simply soldered the connectors on the wire end without crimping them first I'd start right there. Get a big hammer if you don't have the tool and give them a few licks with a good backup to crimp them.

I instructed with Chin allot but never tried Homestead ... looks to be good weather.

msracing

rbl ... what we found is that one of the cables if not all of them have some sort of problem..

What drives me nuts is that we had tried this cable deal many times before and nothing happens and now it works...

i still need to fix it as at this moment we have power go thru the kill and a direct lead from the battery to the fuse block... it will get me thru the weekend but i will still need to get this fixed ... to pass tech the car will need to shut down from the kill switch...

i didnt crimp the ends just filled them with solder and then pushed the cable that i had fluxed into the melted solder and then gave it some more heat to get it all melted together... that is how we have always done it before at our race shop .. maybe the tin coated cable works better crimped..

i am just going to replace it all with regular copper cable and copper ended ....


have a great day.....Manny

rbl

I believe you have found your problem. You NEVER EVER just rely on the solder for the electrical connection -- NEVER.

Remove the cable from the switch and get a couple of good size hammers and heat then connector, put a rag over it and give it a couple of good smacks. Or, if the cable is out then heat it up and put it in a vise and crush it.

You don't need to replace the cable .. just the connector. If you try to start the car ... click click click the bad connector should get warm.

Also, if you put a good jumper across the kill switch does the car work? There is a possibility that the kill switch itself is bad which is where I started. Actually it is bad ... maybe because of the connector on the wire but that is the circuit problem.

geerookie

OK........Again, IT IS NOT THE WIRING SIZE, CONNECTIONS ETC.!!!!!!

I'll say this up front, I'm an @$$-hole ask anyone who knows me BUT I usually know what I'm talking about when it comes to electronics...key word is "usually".

Since you didn't give me the info I asked for earlier to try and help you find the problem I will explain the basics of how the interrelated circuits work and let you figure it out.
I didn't want to do this before because of the time it takes to type all this but maybe it will help someone.

The starter motor has pole pieces that are arranged around the armature. Both solenoid windings are energized when power is applied. The pull-in winding circuit is completed to the ground through the starter motor. The windings work together magnetically to pull and hold in the plunger. The plunger moves the shift lever. This action causes the starter drive assembly to rotate on the armature shaft spline as it engages with the flywheel ring gear on the engine. Moving at the same time, the plunger also closes the solenoid switch contacts in the starter solenoid. Full battery voltage is applied directly to the starter motor and it cranks the engine.

As soon as the solenoid switch contacts close, current stops flowing thorough the pull-in winding because battery voltage is applied to both ends of the windings. The hold-in winding remains energized; its magnetic field is strong enough to hold the plunger, shift lever, starter drive assembly, and solenoid switch contacts in place to continue cranking the engine. When the engine starts, pinion overrun protects the armature from excessive speed until the switch is opened.

When the engine control module (ECM) sees an engine run flag, the ground is removed from the control circuit of the Crank relay. The switch side of the Crank relay opens and battery voltage is removed from the starter solenoid S terminal. Current flows from the motor contacts through both windings to the ground at the end of the hold-in winding. However, the direction of the current flow through the pull-in winding is now opposite the direction of the current flow when the winding was first energized. Key thing to note while troubleshooting your problem

The magnetic fields of the pull-in and hold-in windings now oppose one another. This action of the windings, along with the help of the return spring, causes the starter drive assembly to disengage and the solenoid switch contacts to open simultaneously. As soon as the contacts open, the starter circuit is turned off.

The electronic side of the Start Circuit
Pressing the Start switch sends a discrete input to the body control module (BCM) notifying it that engine start has been requested. This is how I knew it wasn't the BCM, you wouldn't get clicking if the BCM was badThe BCM then verifies that the brake/clutch pedal has been depressed with a discrete input from the brake/clutch pedal switch and that the key fob, with the correct code, is in the vehicle. After this information has been verified the BCM grounds the control side [Q8] of the RUN/CRANK Relay [power is supplied through the clutch switch which is a pink wire from the BCM C4B10] closing the switch side of the RUN/CRANK relay and allowing battery positive voltage to flow from the BATT 3 [60A] fuse through the RUN/CRANK Relay switch, ECM Fuse 12 [15A] [pin C4B10 on the BCM] to the battery positive voltage side of the Crank Relay Coil[Relay 43]These have to happen simultaneously or the relay won't work. The BCM also sends a high speed GMLAN message to the ECM requesting engine start. The ECM grounds the control circuit of the CRANK Relay My guess is that this is your chattering relayclosing the CRANK Relay Switch Circuit and allowing battery positive voltage to flow through the STARTER Fuse, the CRANK Relay switch to the S terminal of the Starter solenoid cranking the engine. This is why I included a description of how the starter works at the beginning
Ground is supplied through the engine block.

Like I stated before, you are back feeding current to one of these circuits and get a false voltage. As soon as the circuit tries to complete you remove the back feed and then it tries all over again.

As you can tell there are many things that need to happen in a certain sequence. When you "simply" add something to the circuit you can cause issues. Now that you have an understanding of how the circuits work hopefully you can figure out what you oops'd.

Good Luck.

I read through this 3 times, I hope I didn't accidently get something out of sequence but I'm human and editing isn't my bag. I like fixing things

trackboss

From what I read a couple posts up I can almost guarantee the problem is the lack of crimping. Solder is really not necessary with a proper crimp and all but useless without it. I sometimes add it to battery cables, but only after crimping. Anywhere else it just makes things brittle. A high quality heat shrink will add security to the terminal connection. I even use it on grounds specifically for that reason.
Also, I've always used good quality, fine strand welding cable. 1G should be more than enough for what you are doing. I used 2G many times for rear mount setups and never, ever had a problem. For short run cable 4G is ok.