Help with dry sump
11-22-2015, 03:25 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Help with dry sump
Hi
I have an are dry sump. My catch can fills up in a 20 min session. Any ideas on what I can change to stop that from happening?
In addition to that I have a little filter on the top of my valve cover. That will also leak oil during track sessions.
If I don't empty the catch can after every session it will overflow. Pain to clean up.
Pics of setup below.
Thanks I advance.
I have an are dry sump. My catch can fills up in a 20 min session. Any ideas on what I can change to stop that from happening?
In addition to that I have a little filter on the top of my valve cover. That will also leak oil during track sessions.
If I don't empty the catch can after every session it will overflow. Pain to clean up.
Pics of setup below.
Thanks I advance.
11-22-2015, 04:32 PM
#2
Pro
Which dry sump do you have? I'm looking at a 4 Stage Aviad over the winter and if my catch can fills up in 10 minutes after that gets installed I'm gonna be pissed.
11-22-2015, 05:27 PM
#4
Safety Car
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What he said
plus... lines that are too small or restricted, engine blowby (leakdown test), oil pickups are not place properly. Are you running a crank scraper ?
plus... lines that are too small or restricted, engine blowby (leakdown test), oil pickups are not place properly. Are you running a crank scraper ?
11-22-2015, 08:05 PM
#5
Racer
Thread Starter
It's an ARE system.
No I'm not filling the tank too much. It's not
Hard to check the level.
Lines should not be restrictive. -10an I think.
I don't know what a crank scraper is so I can't answer that.
Engine is relatively new. About 20 hrs on it. It's a schwanke motor. I would expect some blow by on a new motor but I have not done a leak down test.
Oil pickups are not changeable as they are part of the pan that comes with the kit.
Any other ideas?
No I'm not filling the tank too much. It's not
Hard to check the level.
Lines should not be restrictive. -10an I think.
I don't know what a crank scraper is so I can't answer that.
Engine is relatively new. About 20 hrs on it. It's a schwanke motor. I would expect some blow by on a new motor but I have not done a leak down test.
Oil pickups are not changeable as they are part of the pan that comes with the kit.
Any other ideas?
11-22-2015, 09:25 PM
#6
Drifting
It's an ARE system.
No I'm not filling the tank too much. It's not
Hard to check the level.
Lines should not be restrictive. -10an I think.
I don't know what a crank scraper is so I can't answer that.
Engine is relatively new. About 20 hrs on it. It's a schwanke motor. I would expect some blow by on a new motor but I have not done a leak down test.
Oil pickups are not changeable as they are part of the pan that comes with the kit.
Any other ideas?
No I'm not filling the tank too much. It's not
Hard to check the level.
Lines should not be restrictive. -10an I think.
I don't know what a crank scraper is so I can't answer that.
Engine is relatively new. About 20 hrs on it. It's a schwanke motor. I would expect some blow by on a new motor but I have not done a leak down test.
Oil pickups are not changeable as they are part of the pan that comes with the kit.
Any other ideas?
I wouldn't think you would need valve cover breather with dry sump system. The dry sump breather should be sufficient. I have run ARE systems and have not seen that issue except under two circumstances:
overfill scenario (knowing that oil level needs to be checked after warmup or coming off track etc. and immediately after engine shutoff). Some have checked oil level after a period of time in which drain back occurs and then overfilling results. Also I saw recently a new engine, built by a known national engine builder, with ARE system experience the same situation after approximately two hours of use and race shop immediately did a leak down and found an average of 8% leak down. As a note LS engines tend to pool oil in heads and leakage will almost always occur with a breather in valve cover at high rpm's.
11-22-2015, 11:29 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Just because there may be fill marks on the tank doesn't mean that is where the system is happy. For some reason at mid Ohio we have to run at least a quart lower on capacity than normal or the catch can will overflow.
No matter how many times you try to top off the system it will keep puking it out.
I'd drain the catch can after the first two runs. If it is still full on the third run then it may be something else. I'd remove the valve cover vent. Let that dry sump pull a vaccume on the motor.
No matter how many times you try to top off the system it will keep puking it out.
I'd drain the catch can after the first two runs. If it is still full on the third run then it may be something else. I'd remove the valve cover vent. Let that dry sump pull a vaccume on the motor.
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c5racr1 (12-20-2015)
11-23-2015, 10:39 AM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
I wouldn't think you would need valve cover breather with dry sump system. The dry sump breather should be sufficient. I have run ARE systems and have not seen that issue except under two circumstances:
overfill scenario (knowing that oil level needs to be checked after warmup or coming off track etc. and immediately after engine shutoff). Some have checked oil level after a period of time in which drain back occurs and then overfilling results. Also I saw recently a new engine, built by a known national engine builder, with ARE system experience the same situation after approximately two hours of use and race shop immediately did a leak down and found an average of 8% leak down. As a note LS engines tend to pool oil in heads and leakage will almost always occur with a breather in valve cover at high rpm's.
overfill scenario (knowing that oil level needs to be checked after warmup or coming off track etc. and immediately after engine shutoff). Some have checked oil level after a period of time in which drain back occurs and then overfilling results. Also I saw recently a new engine, built by a known national engine builder, with ARE system experience the same situation after approximately two hours of use and race shop immediately did a leak down and found an average of 8% leak down. As a note LS engines tend to pool oil in heads and leakage will almost always occur with a breather in valve cover at high rpm's.
[QUOTE=Screamin Z;1590960131]Just because there may be fill marks on the tank doesn't mean that is where the system is happy. For some reason at mid Ohio we have to run at least a quart lower on capacity than normal or the catch can will overflow.
Interesting thought. It does seem that I am just emptying and filling the tank back with about the same amount. I guess I do it for fear of not having enough oil in the tank while on track if I don't top it off each time.
11-23-2015, 11:00 AM
#9
We have had the same issue with our Boss 302R cars and the dry sump.
We ran the car until the catch can stopped filling up, measured that amount and called the Ford to see if the amount still in the tank was sufficient to run the motor without damage, We got the green light and haven't had a problem since.
We also have had customer cars come in with the same problem and all they did was tap the tank with a drain back line from the bottom of the catch can. (their catch can and dry sump tank location allowed them to do this).
Pull the breather filter off of the valve cover as well. Let the dry sump system pull vacuum on the engine. With a good vacuum on the engine and dry sump, you will see an increase of a couple hp (3-6).
Let us know how it works or your fix!
We ran the car until the catch can stopped filling up, measured that amount and called the Ford to see if the amount still in the tank was sufficient to run the motor without damage, We got the green light and haven't had a problem since.
We also have had customer cars come in with the same problem and all they did was tap the tank with a drain back line from the bottom of the catch can. (their catch can and dry sump tank location allowed them to do this).
Pull the breather filter off of the valve cover as well. Let the dry sump system pull vacuum on the engine. With a good vacuum on the engine and dry sump, you will see an increase of a couple hp (3-6).
Let us know how it works or your fix!
11-23-2015, 11:27 AM
#10
Racer
Thread Starter
We have had the same issue with our Boss 302R cars and the dry sump.
We ran the car until the catch can stopped filling up, measured that amount and called the Ford to see if the amount still in the tank was sufficient to run the motor without damage, We got the green light and haven't had a problem since.
We also have had customer cars come in with the same problem and all they did was tap the tank with a drain back line from the bottom of the catch can. (their catch can and dry sump tank location allowed them to do this).
Pull the breather filter off of the valve cover as well. Let the dry sump system pull vacuum on the engine. With a good vacuum on the engine and dry sump, you will see an increase of a couple hp (3-6).
Let us know how it works or your fix!
We ran the car until the catch can stopped filling up, measured that amount and called the Ford to see if the amount still in the tank was sufficient to run the motor without damage, We got the green light and haven't had a problem since.
We also have had customer cars come in with the same problem and all they did was tap the tank with a drain back line from the bottom of the catch can. (their catch can and dry sump tank location allowed them to do this).
Pull the breather filter off of the valve cover as well. Let the dry sump system pull vacuum on the engine. With a good vacuum on the engine and dry sump, you will see an increase of a couple hp (3-6).
Let us know how it works or your fix!
Thanks for the replies.
Pete
11-25-2015, 11:02 AM
#12
Burning Brakes
lose the valve cover breather.. to much air. you also have to be careful with crankcase vacuum as too much will suck in crank seals.
I run a restrictor on crankcase vents to create some vacuum but not too much.
I empty my can 1-2 times a season
I run a restrictor on crankcase vents to create some vacuum but not too much.
I empty my can 1-2 times a season
Last edited by JVetthead; 11-25-2015 at 11:03 AM.
11-25-2015, 04:36 PM
#13
Racer
Thread Starter
Of restrictor do you use?
11-26-2015, 08:06 AM
#14
Burning Brakes
It looks like you still have some emission stuff on your engine so YMMV..
I have both valve cover vents T'ed together with a one size fit all T where you cut the smaller ends off. I left all the small ends on so there is about an 1/8" hole. I covered the open end with a small piece of cloth tie wrapped on for a filter. That is my restrictor.
Not elegant but works.
No CC vent at all would be too much vacuum. You need a little air flow to help the scavenge pump, the way I see it.
I had planned on measuring CC vacuum but this worked so never got around to it.
I run a Daily pan and pump.
I have both valve cover vents T'ed together with a one size fit all T where you cut the smaller ends off. I left all the small ends on so there is about an 1/8" hole. I covered the open end with a small piece of cloth tie wrapped on for a filter. That is my restrictor.
Not elegant but works.
No CC vent at all would be too much vacuum. You need a little air flow to help the scavenge pump, the way I see it.
I had planned on measuring CC vacuum but this worked so never got around to it.
I run a Daily pan and pump.
11-29-2015, 05:38 PM
#17
Melting Slicks
I agree with Lou G. Here are some plumbing schematics for LS engines running ARE dry sump systems:
http://drysump.com/LS%20Plumbing%20Schematics.htm
Notice how they recommend a line from the dry sump reservoir back to the valve covers or PCV. My system is plumbed exactly like the 2nd drawing with the factory pressure pump. I think the reason why you need a line between the reservoir and the valve cover is to equalize pressures in the reservoir. The scavenge pumps are pumping hot oil and gases from the pan into the reservoir which is creating a positive pressure. If you have a line from the reservoir back to the engine, the the pressures will equalize. If you don't, then the catch can will be the only way to relieve excess pressure in the reservoir and you will see excessive flow of gases and oil to the catch can. My catch can never has more than a few drops of oil in it, unless I overfill the tank.
http://drysump.com/LS%20Plumbing%20Schematics.htm
Notice how they recommend a line from the dry sump reservoir back to the valve covers or PCV. My system is plumbed exactly like the 2nd drawing with the factory pressure pump. I think the reason why you need a line between the reservoir and the valve cover is to equalize pressures in the reservoir. The scavenge pumps are pumping hot oil and gases from the pan into the reservoir which is creating a positive pressure. If you have a line from the reservoir back to the engine, the the pressures will equalize. If you don't, then the catch can will be the only way to relieve excess pressure in the reservoir and you will see excessive flow of gases and oil to the catch can. My catch can never has more than a few drops of oil in it, unless I overfill the tank.
Last edited by redtopz; 11-29-2015 at 05:38 PM.
12-06-2015, 05:30 PM
#18
Racer
Thread Starter
I agree with Lou G. Here are some plumbing schematics for LS engines running ARE dry sump systems: http://drysump.com/LS%20Plumbing%20Schematics.htm Notice how they recommend a line from the dry sump reservoir back to the valve covers or PCV. My system is plumbed exactly like the 2nd drawing with the factory pressure pump. I think the reason why you need a line between the reservoir and the valve cover is to equalize pressures in the reservoir. The scavenge pumps are pumping hot oil and gases from the pan into the reservoir which is creating a positive pressure. If you have a line from the reservoir back to the engine, the the pressures will equalize. If you don't, then the catch can will be the only way to relieve excess pressure in the reservoir and you will see excessive flow of gases and oil to the catch can. My catch can never has more than a few drops of oil in it, unless I overfill the tank.
Do I need both valve covers plumbed in or just the one with the current vent I have on it?
How did you connect it to the valve cover?
12-06-2015, 07:11 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
My setup for the LS3 in the Datsun is like the first diagram except I run twin cannisters to the PCV system separate from the oil tank/Tank breather. We chose to run one to the valve covers and one to the intake. The oil tank has its own breather tank. We have a 4 gallon Butlerbuilt tank, but we plan to run about 11 quarts of oil in the system based on measurements provided by smart guys like Louise Gigliotti!!
12-06-2015, 07:23 PM
#20
Melting Slicks
