Nimble and light handling
07-09-2016, 03:42 AM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Nimble and light handling
I have a 91 C4 that other than a few mods is stock coupe. Suspension pretty much stock other than heim joints and new bushings on front and rear anti roll bars as they were worn out the rest looks and acts just fine. Upgraded the rear bar to I think a 26 mm one it was several years ago and a positive improvement the 32 in front just seemed to bind the car up and turned in worse even at legal street speeds. Made it feel like a lumbering beast maybe at higher speeds in comes into it's own. The car just seems to lack nimble and eager to go have some fun. Sure it is fast enough to get me in over my head at 64 years old and slowing down a bit but still up for some fun.
What I am shooting for is a car that sort of eggs you on to crank it up and wants to go with a light feel to it that generates some confidence it will go exactly where you point it and if don't ask for over the top silly will be with you on corner exit. All the other sporty cars I have had have been smaller and lighter some with similar power to weight ratios and some with much better ones. The lighter they get the more eager they feel to me. I did a rather simple and silly experiment. I have an entrance ramp to the interstate near me that is about 10% down grade. Accel much better and lightness a bit but noticeably better so leads me to believe I am just hauling to much car around.
Saying all that is there anyway to lose 10 to 15% of the weight and still have what looks like a street car with a C4 platform to start with? I can add power but that does not add nimble. In the C4 section there is an extensive weights of things section and deleting 300 to 350 lbs. does not seem possible to me. Fully stripped track only cars seem to scale out at 2850 to 2900 lbs. vs. 3240 bone stock. Is a C4 just the wrong platform for what I want?
What I am shooting for is a car that sort of eggs you on to crank it up and wants to go with a light feel to it that generates some confidence it will go exactly where you point it and if don't ask for over the top silly will be with you on corner exit. All the other sporty cars I have had have been smaller and lighter some with similar power to weight ratios and some with much better ones. The lighter they get the more eager they feel to me. I did a rather simple and silly experiment. I have an entrance ramp to the interstate near me that is about 10% down grade. Accel much better and lightness a bit but noticeably better so leads me to believe I am just hauling to much car around.
Saying all that is there anyway to lose 10 to 15% of the weight and still have what looks like a street car with a C4 platform to start with? I can add power but that does not add nimble. In the C4 section there is an extensive weights of things section and deleting 300 to 350 lbs. does not seem possible to me. Fully stripped track only cars seem to scale out at 2850 to 2900 lbs. vs. 3240 bone stock. Is a C4 just the wrong platform for what I want?
07-09-2016, 10:23 AM
#2
Melting Slicks
07-09-2016, 11:11 AM
#3
Melting Slicks
You can get more "nimbleness" from a C4 but you'll generally give up grip to do it...
Most of what you need to do is with alignment. Going to the bigger bar in the back increases oversteer, but it makes the car slower. If you're not interested in speed as much as "feel", then take out some caster, knock it down to 3 degrees or so and set the front toe to zero. This will lighten up the steering a lot and make the car "feel" better. Notice I didn't say it would make the car faster, for grip you want big amounts of caster and that makes the steering heavier.
Going to toe out in the front will eat tires and make the car tramline a lot on ruts and uneven pavement, but it will turn in like a banshee whenever you twitch the wheel..
Most of what you need to do is with alignment. Going to the bigger bar in the back increases oversteer, but it makes the car slower. If you're not interested in speed as much as "feel", then take out some caster, knock it down to 3 degrees or so and set the front toe to zero. This will lighten up the steering a lot and make the car "feel" better. Notice I didn't say it would make the car faster, for grip you want big amounts of caster and that makes the steering heavier.
Going to toe out in the front will eat tires and make the car tramline a lot on ruts and uneven pavement, but it will turn in like a banshee whenever you twitch the wheel..
07-09-2016, 11:13 AM
#4
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I am open for suggestions. 5 speed 2 to 3 liter '92 or earlier a plus here as no smog checks at all, 2200 to 2400 lbs. max, convertible a plus and easy to work on / inexpensive a must. I was thinking a Miata off the top of my head and all the S2000 around here are a bit pricey. I can easily picture a Miata with a small T3 turbo and aftermarket ECM doing just fine to get an easy 150 to 175 hp. with the 1.6 unless cheaper to swap in the 1.8 or 2.0 Does not need to be class legal for racing just street legal and safe to drive. I am 5'8" and 170 so small is ok too. It will never see a track and never see 3 digits in speed unless speed limits change drastically though do like getting to 75 in a big hurry LOL. Good brakes and light handling with plenty of grip a must as well. If there are other affordable platforms I am all ears.
07-09-2016, 11:26 AM
#5
Melting Slicks
I am open for suggestions. 5 speed 2 to 3 liter '92 or earlier a plus here as no smog checks at all, 2200 to 2400 lbs. max, convertible a plus and easy to work on / inexpensive a must. I was thinking a Miata off the top of my head and all the S2000 around here are a bit pricey. I can easily picture a Miata with a small T3 turbo and aftermarket ECM doing just fine to get an easy 150 to 175 hp. with the 1.6 unless cheaper to swap in the 1.8 or 2.0 Does not need to be class legal for racing just street legal and safe to drive. I am 5'8" and 170 so small is ok too. It will never see a track and never see 3 digits in speed unless speed limits change drastically though do like getting to 75 in a big hurry LOL. Good brakes and light handling with plenty of grip a must as well. If there are other affordable platforms I am all ears.
I've instructed in and driven S2000's on the track, I'm way more impressed with them than a Miata. IMO, one of those would require very few upgrades.
07-09-2016, 12:37 PM
#6
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
The S2000 might come out cheaper and easier with less to do probably zero under the hood. Assuming the rest tires wheels chassis stuff. It may be close enough out of the box for all I know. More up front and less in upgrades of dubious value at times. The S2000 is appealing as I believe a 2 liter out of the box with plenty of RPM on tap as well that can cover up a lot of sins if you can just hang with the same gear on a back road.
Before the Corvette had an 87 Fiero that got modded to the point of undriveable on anything but a dry smooth road. I rather not take that path again. Fun little car when I bought it for a song v-6 5 speed GT. The big downside was the brakes that required a lot of determination planning and courage at the time as no worthwhile upgrades had been sorted. I have driven different drag race cars that ran in the low 9 second range various sports cars and walked away from a stock car as more of a demo derby in my mind.
I will buff up the C4 and with luck find a new owner for it that will end up as an even swap in cash for something lighter and more useful to me.
Before the Corvette had an 87 Fiero that got modded to the point of undriveable on anything but a dry smooth road. I rather not take that path again. Fun little car when I bought it for a song v-6 5 speed GT. The big downside was the brakes that required a lot of determination planning and courage at the time as no worthwhile upgrades had been sorted. I have driven different drag race cars that ran in the low 9 second range various sports cars and walked away from a stock car as more of a demo derby in my mind.
I will buff up the C4 and with luck find a new owner for it that will end up as an even swap in cash for something lighter and more useful to me.
07-09-2016, 05:16 PM
#7
Team Owner
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If you needed to upgrade the swaybars then it sounds like you started with a base suspension car
The base cars, like mine used to be, is setup to understeer.
The springs need to be changed as well as the swaybars.
I went the coilover route.
They are NOT lightweight cars, you can't drive them like a Miata or an S2000
The base cars, like mine used to be, is setup to understeer.
The springs need to be changed as well as the swaybars.
I went the coilover route.
They are NOT lightweight cars, you can't drive them like a Miata or an S2000
07-09-2016, 08:04 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I am fine with the base spring rates and tightening up sway bar links and bushings along with a slightly larger rear bar took out a bunch of under steer and body twist from way to soft rear. Personally even on the street rather have a tad of over steer than run out of steering lock. The little Fiero had some very bad manners that did not show until too late. Trailing throttle over steer similar to a 911. Drift and if lift no more road left. One of those cars when in too deep you have to hang with it and hope to sneak it through. Not my idea of fun as just enough can turn into too much with a couple mph. And yes over steer can run you out of steering lock as well. I find some compliance useful rather than a handicap
07-09-2016, 08:40 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
light and nimble
Test drive a Boxster. Not the cheapest car on your list but it will require the least modification for your purposes.
A C5 is also a reasonable choice, but it will feel big and heavy next to the Porsche.
A C5 is also a reasonable choice, but it will feel big and heavy next to the Porsche.
07-11-2016, 01:18 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
I have a 91 C4 that other than a few mods is stock coupe. Suspension pretty much stock other than heim joints and new bushings on front and rear anti roll bars as they were worn out the rest looks and acts just fine. Upgraded the rear bar to I think a 26 mm one it was several years ago and a positive improvement the 32 in front just seemed to bind the car up and turned in worse even at legal street speeds. Made it feel like a lumbering beast maybe at higher speeds in comes into it's own. The car just seems to lack nimble and eager to go have some fun. Sure it is fast enough to get me in over my head at 64 years old and slowing down a bit but still up for some fun.
What I am shooting for is a car that sort of eggs you on to crank it up and wants to go with a light feel to it that generates some confidence it will go exactly where you point it and if don't ask for over the top silly will be with you on corner exit. All the other sporty cars I have had have been smaller and lighter some with similar power to weight ratios and some with much better ones. The lighter they get the more eager they feel to me. I did a rather simple and silly experiment. I have an entrance ramp to the interstate near me that is about 10% down grade. Accel much better and lightness a bit but noticeably better so leads me to believe I am just hauling to much car around.
Saying all that is there anyway to lose 10 to 15% of the weight and still have what looks like a street car with a C4 platform to start with? I can add power but that does not add nimble. In the C4 section there is an extensive weights of things section and deleting 300 to 350 lbs. does not seem possible to me. Fully stripped track only cars seem to scale out at 2850 to 2900 lbs. vs. 3240 bone stock. Is a C4 just the wrong platform for what I want?
What I am shooting for is a car that sort of eggs you on to crank it up and wants to go with a light feel to it that generates some confidence it will go exactly where you point it and if don't ask for over the top silly will be with you on corner exit. All the other sporty cars I have had have been smaller and lighter some with similar power to weight ratios and some with much better ones. The lighter they get the more eager they feel to me. I did a rather simple and silly experiment. I have an entrance ramp to the interstate near me that is about 10% down grade. Accel much better and lightness a bit but noticeably better so leads me to believe I am just hauling to much car around.
Saying all that is there anyway to lose 10 to 15% of the weight and still have what looks like a street car with a C4 platform to start with? I can add power but that does not add nimble. In the C4 section there is an extensive weights of things section and deleting 300 to 350 lbs. does not seem possible to me. Fully stripped track only cars seem to scale out at 2850 to 2900 lbs. vs. 3240 bone stock. Is a C4 just the wrong platform for what I want?
07-11-2016, 01:31 PM
#12
Team Owner
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Of course the lack of power on the other car may drive him crazy
07-11-2016, 02:17 PM
#13
I owned a 99 Miata before I bought my C5. It was a blast on back roads, and awesome for just cruising around. The C5 is almost more obnoxious on public roads, as I'm breaking way more laws if I drive it the same way. That said, I made the jump because of autocross reasons, so street manners are not the most important to me. I didn't like that I ran the Miata at ~80% throttle everywhere, especially trying to keep up with traffic.
I've driven all 4 generations of Miata, and both S2000's, and I wouldn't suggest an AP1 S2000 for street use. They have to be reved way too much for my liking. I'd say an NC Miata with a 6 speed (90+% of the time, this gets you the factory limited slip diff). Personally, I'd want the power hard top, as they are way quieter on the street, and could be used 4 seasons with a wheel/tire change. Dump the factory suspension for some aftermarket coilovers (spend some extra money here, as the difference between crap shocks and good ones is night and day), an exhaust if you want one, and enjoy...
I've driven all 4 generations of Miata, and both S2000's, and I wouldn't suggest an AP1 S2000 for street use. They have to be reved way too much for my liking. I'd say an NC Miata with a 6 speed (90+% of the time, this gets you the factory limited slip diff). Personally, I'd want the power hard top, as they are way quieter on the street, and could be used 4 seasons with a wheel/tire change. Dump the factory suspension for some aftermarket coilovers (spend some extra money here, as the difference between crap shocks and good ones is night and day), an exhaust if you want one, and enjoy...
Last edited by mattastick; 07-12-2016 at 10:14 PM.
07-12-2016, 08:38 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
How are the coil over kits well sorted for spring rates and valveing for performance street use? Come with needed hardware to bolt on and go? Somewhat adjustable beyond just ride height? Cost? Brakes good or no? The one grievance I have had with the '91 is the brakes. They have never been right '91 or not. I suspect the booster that has been rebuilt and the '1 is a one year only part and all the parts stores sells a one size fits all and it does not due to the ECU bracket. A new dealer one is 635.00 no thanks..
What is an NC Miata? Pricing around here for a late 90's Miata would make it an approximate trade in dollars with a realistic price for both.
What is an NC Miata? Pricing around here for a late 90's Miata would make it an approximate trade in dollars with a realistic price for both.
Last edited by ddahlgren; 07-12-2016 at 08:47 PM.
07-12-2016, 10:19 PM
#15
If a coilover kit looks like every other coilover kit, but in a different color, avoid it. There are good brands out there that have figured these cars out by now. What other adjustments do you need for coilovers beyond ride height? If it's just a fun street car, fixed valving dampers are just fine. No need to spend the extra money on *****.
The NC started production in 2006, and were replaced by the ND in 2016. In 2009, they got a stronger engine, different front end geometry, and a facelift.
Early Miatas are really cheap feeling compared to later cars. Even a 99 is a huge improvement over an NA (you can feel the extra chassis rigidity, even just driving on the street). NC is a further step up.
The NC started production in 2006, and were replaced by the ND in 2016. In 2009, they got a stronger engine, different front end geometry, and a facelift.
Early Miatas are really cheap feeling compared to later cars. Even a 99 is a huge improvement over an NA (you can feel the extra chassis rigidity, even just driving on the street). NC is a further step up.
07-13-2016, 02:37 PM
#16
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I have double adjustable Penskes on mine (as well as a bunch of other stuff)
I wouldn't say you need to go to that level, but I do use the adjustability
VanSteel sells a nice kit using the QA1 double adjustables.
You can also call up Doug Rippie, they supplied my latest springs.
You can tune it with the spring rates
The larger coils on those kits mean you need to move the front swaybar, I didn't with the Penskes.
The reason I got on about the base suspension is that it is tuned to understeer. You could just replace the springs with the Z07 springs and some adjustable shocks, but at that stage the coilovers will give you a lot more.
Brakes? The early cars just had 12in rotors, the later cars got the 13in.
How much do you want to spend? Willwood makes a nice 6pot kit.
I wouldn't say you need to go to that level, but I do use the adjustability
VanSteel sells a nice kit using the QA1 double adjustables.
You can also call up Doug Rippie, they supplied my latest springs.
You can tune it with the spring rates
The larger coils on those kits mean you need to move the front swaybar, I didn't with the Penskes.
The reason I got on about the base suspension is that it is tuned to understeer. You could just replace the springs with the Z07 springs and some adjustable shocks, but at that stage the coilovers will give you a lot more.
Brakes? The early cars just had 12in rotors, the later cars got the 13in.
How much do you want to spend? Willwood makes a nice 6pot kit.
07-13-2016, 03:50 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '15-'16-'17-‘18-'19-'20-'21-'22
I am open for suggestions. 5 speed 2 to 3 liter '92 or earlier a plus here as no smog checks at all, 2200 to 2400 lbs. max, convertible a plus and easy to work on / inexpensive a must. I was thinking a Miata off the top of my head and all the S2000 around here are a bit pricey. I can easily picture a Miata with a small T3 turbo and aftermarket ECM doing just fine to get an easy 150 to 175 hp. with the 1.6 unless cheaper to swap in the 1.8 or 2.0 Does not need to be class legal for racing just street legal and safe to drive. I am 5'8" and 170 so small is ok too. It will never see a track and never see 3 digits in speed unless speed limits change drastically though do like getting to 75 in a big hurry LOL. Good brakes and light handling with plenty of grip a must as well. If there are other affordable platforms I am all ears.
https://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/
07-13-2016, 04:32 PM
#18
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Raff sure looks nose heavy and a nightmare to work on to me. Think crank up windows ragtop heater and radio end of option list. Cloth seats fine. Small wheels and tires fine if they match the weight and HP on tap. I have driven low hp cars that were light and handled well and quite aware it is not a 0 to 60 game once spooled up you just think twice about lifting all about conservation of momentum at the end of the day. Pick a good line and get rewarded and a bad one an instant teaching moment.
Brian was talking about Miata coil over kits if I go that way. I am thinking cutting weight to 2200 lbs. will go a long way from 3300 in the nimble department. I know a Corvette board but all like race cars and road racing in this section so hope all options are fair game.
Brian was talking about Miata coil over kits if I go that way. I am thinking cutting weight to 2200 lbs. will go a long way from 3300 in the nimble department. I know a Corvette board but all like race cars and road racing in this section so hope all options are fair game.
07-13-2016, 04:34 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Looked at an over budget Boxster nice car nightmare to work on LOL..
