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Looking for some feedback from the group. I have a friend of mine with a C7 Z06 (no Z07 package) that is going to do his first HPDE event with me at Mid-Ohio. We are getting him a helmet, some tow hooks, and flushing the brake fluid with some Motul 600. I don't think the tow hooks are necessary, but just in case he went off track he wanted them to protect the car, not a horrible decision by any means.
I have a base C6, so I am not sure on the braking system for the C7Z. When I started in HPDE 1 I used my stock cross drilled rotors, and I suggested he do te same, as I speculate the braking temps won't be too high yet for a first track event to be of significant concern to cause stress fractures. I also suspect the stock DOT4 fluid in the C7Z would be okay as well, but a couple bottles of Motul 600 is cheap. My main question is the stock brake pads. My gut says they are probably semi-metallic pads capable of handling someone's first track day, but looking primarily for feedback on it. Any need to upgrade to a Hawk HP+ or equivalent, or is the general consensus that the stock pads are adequate?
Any thoughts or feedback on anything else I am forgetting from a track ready perspective for a first timer at the track? Just not overly familiar with the C7Z and want to give good advice.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (track prepared)
C3 of Year Winner (track prepared) 2019
5w50 is recommended per GM so definitely recommend that. The stock pads are likely fine depending on the level of driver. It can work both ways, a really fast driver can cook the pads but so too can someone who is overly relying on the stability/PTM control.
If the car has the built-in performance data recorder, make sure you, or someone, remember to "define the start/finish" on the very first out lap so that it records lap times for him. Once you do that once, you can just press start recording when in grid and it will automatically do the rest. Don't do it from pit lane, I have found it doesn't really work all that well.
I'm pretty sure its 15w50 they recommend. A lot of us run 5w50 for track days when it's cold but it's kind of hard to find and I see no reason to run it during Summer.
...I also suspect the stock DOT4 fluid in the C7Z would be okay as well...
...My main question is the stock brake pads...Any need to upgrade to a Hawk HP+ or equivalent...?
The stock brake fluid is a DOT 3 fluid. Stock clutch fluid is DOT 4.
So....very good idea to swap out the stock DOT 3 for the Motul RBF 600. I had good performance from that before I went with Castrol SRF.
Street brake pads are for the street, and track pads need to be used for the track. There's not much worse than approaching a corner, getting into your brake zone, and pushing the brake pedal and not getting any/or very little braking!!!!
If you're boiling your fluid you'll get a soft pedal (or the pedal just goes to the floor) with little or no braking.
If you've overheated the pad compound you get pad fade, where the pedal will be firm but the pad is just sorta melting due to being overheated, and you get little or no braking.
You've taken care of the boiling problem with the Motul. Don't mess with having braking problems by running street pads at the track.
As far as the HP+, not a good track pad. Take a look at the Hawk site:
In there you can see that the HP+ is only good up to 800°, but their new "Street Race" compound has a max temp of up to 1200°. That pad might be a good novice/beginner/first time track driver pad.
Also, the website says the HP+ is only good for cars up to 2800 lbs, and our C7 Z06's weigh up in the 3600 lb range. When I have full fuel and am taking a student or passenger for a ride around the track, I'm up well in excess of 3900 lbs in my C7 Z06/Z07. So, your buddy and his instructor will put his car up way above what the HP+ is good for.
However, I used to run DTC-70 up front and DTC-60 in the rear of my C6 Z06 with good results. Take a look at the operating temps they can withstand:
But, I more recently used Carbotech XP12 front and XP10 rear, but if I had cast iron rotors on my C7 Z06 I'd be running the XP20 up front and XP10 in the rear:
In that Carbotech site, you can see that their 1521 compound is reported to be good up to 800°, but "1521™ is NOT recommended for ANY track use". That's the same temp the HP+ is good to.
The real good thing about the Carbotechs is that you can swap from your track pads back to the 1521 for street driving (or vice versa) and not need to bed them because the compounds are so similar.
Bottom line for pads - street pads are for the street, TRACK PADS ARE REQUIRED FOR THE TRACK!!
I was instructing at the Nat'l Corvette Museum HPDE at VIR the end of June, and I had a student who was doing his first track event. He was driving a C6 Z51, and after about 2 or 3 sessions he was getting fast enough that we would have smoked stock pads!!! I'm glad he was driving his Dad's car that is well prepped for the track with AP calipers up front with track pads!!!!!
And, the Owner's Manual says: "For track events or competitive driving, use Mobil 1® 15W-50 engine oil".
Just MHO, but it's a very bad feeling when at the track to push the brake pedal and not get effective braking!!!
Get a proper alignment. C7s in general come with a horrible alignment from the factory. Make sure whomever does it does the rear caster. Very critical part of the alignment
First thing to do is to read the owner's manual. Most of what you have been told is in the Owner's Manual. GM did a much better job telling people how to prep the car for the track than they did in previous generations.
As for setting rear caster that can be a challenge. A lot of dealers don't have the tools to do the job and it takes a fair amount of time to do correctly. The OM says to apply the normal tolerances spec'd in the Service Manual to the track alignments mentioned in the Owner's manual. The spec is 0 degrees +/- 0.8 degrees on each side. No rear cross caster is mentioned. From playing with my rear camber/caster I suspect that almost any camber setting will get you a caster setting that falls into that range and that is why dealers don't invest in the tools. A dealer did my first track alignment without checking rear caster and with the both left and right sides rear camber at -1.8 the left side caster was +0.4 degrees and the right side caster was -0.5 degrees. That falls within spec. Some respected chassis people have said the best combination is to have rear camber at -1.7 and caster at +0.7 degrees. It took me several days to get close to that since I didn't have an alignment rack and was trying to do things on the floor.
I would say if you can't find a dealer with the correct tools set the alignment to GM's specs and not worry as much about the caster. I ran with a messed up rear cross caster for a full season without any issues.
So I totally agree with the advice on brakes and alignment, but I do want to stress the first time HPDE advice. Running on Hawk DT70's for a first time on the track seems extreme. Certainly don't want to run with cross drilled rotors on a pad that aggressive. Even running an XP10/8 setup front and rear feels heavy on the braking side for the first time on track.
When I think back to the first time I was on track, like most of us, I imagine we all thought we knew how to drive fast, then were quickly humbled when we realized how slow we were. Before I would suggest someone spend the money on rotors, pads, and a modified street/track alignment, I personally think they ought to try an HPDE event first at a much smaller initial investment. I was very careful with my 7 year old base C6 the first time on the track, so I have to imagine someone with a new Z06 is going to have more caution. The fact that they haven't yet caught the bug we have all caught makes me reluctant to recommended going all out. I am more looking for what the C7 Z06 owners that were first time track goers did with their cars. HPDE 1, especially with NASA, is a learning experience that allows individuals to open up their cars some in a safe manner.
I realize street pads are not track pads, but to go to a pad that can arguably be used with slicks seems like jumping into the deep end and hoping you know how to swim. I would also speculate that even a subpar stock alignment will not inhibit someone in HPDE 1. I ran with my stock alignment for my first tracks events before it felt prudent to get a track alignment. Tire wear for one weekend in HPDE 1 won't even be noticeable with a stock alignment. Am I thinking wrong here?
I run Ferodo DS2500 as my street pads because they don't squeal like dedicated track pads and have stock feel to them (not overly aggressive bite or torque). I've also run them in a pinch on the track and even in the advanced group they held up remarkable well. I'd definitely consider them as a good starter/dual use pad.
As an aside, I tend to agree that the stock pads with the iron brakes have a hard time on track. Whether your friend has any issues will be entirely on how he drivers but my first event on them I was melting the pads in two laps at VIR.
I think you've decided that your buddy doesn't need pads other than the stock ones.
Butt....if he ends up doing any future events, here's some info about the stock pads.
You can see in the picture below of the stock pads that they are a Ferodo HP1000/1 compound, and have a rating of FF, which tells you fading at 600°F is possible:
Here's a quote by JerryU from another thread that explains the "FF" after the compound designation:
DOT requires a friction rating be put on brake pads.
This two letter edge code gives you indication of their ability to bite and resist fade, because of the wide range involved in each letter, it is only a rough indication.
Explanation of D.O.T. Edge Codes Located on all Brake Pads Official D.O.T. Edge Code Coefficient of Friction (C.F.)
The first letter is the Friction when @ 250 F and the Second letter Friction @ 600 F
EE 0.25 to 0.35 both temps 0-25% fade at 600 F possible
EF 0.25 to 0.35 @ 250 F 0.35 to 0.45 @ 600 F 2% to 44% fade at 600 F possible
FF 0.35 to 0.45 both temps 0-22% fade at 600 F possible GG 0.45 to 0.55 Very Rare
HH 0.55 to 0.65 Carbon/Carbon only. O.K. up to 3000 F
There have been many reports of pad fade with the stock pads after a couple laps, but that's probably been when driven by more experienced track drivers.
As mentioned earlier, your buddy's C7 Z06 is a fairly heavyweight track car - with full fuel and two people it will weigh 3900+lbs, so it's going to generate some high temps in the brakes when doing aggressive track braking.
The stock tires on his car should be the Michelin Pilot Super Sport ZP's, and they are a really good track tire!! I've got a set that I have run at the track on my C7 Z06/Z07 and they have excellent traction. The great traction will allow hard braking, which with the weight of the car, will put some real heat into the brakes.
Tell your buddy to be careful when braking - pay attention to any slight development of fade, and if detected run the straights slower and brake earlier to avoid full fade when trying to threshold brake.
Additionally, is your buddy's car a 2017? If so, make sure he installs the brake cooling ducts that come with the car. Many of us (including me) that have 2015/2016 Z06's have purchased those brake ducts that came out for the 2017 model year cars and are included with the 2017 cars, but not installed.
Tell your buddy to have fun, and when braking be on the lookout for pad fade - firm pedal, but ineffective braking.
I haven't completely decided new pads aren't necessary, with the 600* temp rating I lean towards new pads as well. I just don't him to jump into a full race pad if not necessary, as a Hawk Street/Race at a 1200* rating would likely be adequate, especially for the first couple track events. I appreciate the feedback on the temp rating, that helps make a much more educated decision.
If it's an auto, advise him to put it in "Sport" mode, not "Track". In track, it will overheat and go into "limp" (usually happens around 3rd session when new students start to get the hang of it). They'll have a ton of fun and very likely not overheat with the Sport setting (I've had over a dozen students with autos that overheated when in track mode, but none have overheated thus far on sport). Still has ridiculous power in Sport mode, but does not keep RPMs at the max when not on throttle.
Step 1 is making your friend understand that even though he may have the fastest CAR out there he will by far not be the fastest driver out there.
A Z06 is a lot of car for someones first track day. Make sure this person understands that FIRST.
on street tires on my grand sport (lighter, less powerful) I can cook my factory pads in a warm up lap + hot lap. My track is hard on brakes, but that's still very quickly.
If it's an auto, advise him to put it in "Sport" mode, not "Track". In track, it will overheat and go into "limp" (usually happens around 3rd session when new students start to get the hang of it). They'll have a ton of fun and very likely not overheat with the Sport setting (I've had over a dozen students with autos that overheated when in track mode, but none have overheated thus far on sport). Still has ridiculous power in Sport mode, but does not keep RPMs at the max when not on throttle.
The car won't limit power in sport mode, it just doesnt keep the car in the lowest possible gear (as far as I know). The car can be in track mode, the trick is to put the transmission in manual mode and use the paddles
07-07-2017, 09:23 PM
C7 Z06 - First time on track advice
