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What's the word from C5 owners on the brake performance during track days? I hear a decent amount of badmouthing on another part of this site about C5 calipers, while I've never heard a bad word from a couple friends regarding the brake operation on their C5s (both Z06 cars). What's the opinion of C5 track guys here?
A lot depends on how hard you run on the track and what your expectations for braking performance are. If you expect a firm predictable pedal with stopping power that is consistent with R comp tire grip, lap after lap for 20-30 mins, you will be disappointed with stock C5 brakes upgraded with track pads and fluid. If you are an intermediate driver or slower and driving 6/10ths the brakes are adequate once the system is filled with good quality DOT 4 brake fluid and the street brake pads are changed out to "track" or race pads. Adding brake cooling to the front is helpful but IMHO, doesn't do more than band aid a inadequate system.
For me, adding a BBK on my C5Z has been the best track performance modification I've made. The improvement in braking performance and reduction in cost of consumables has significantly improved the car for the track. To me, this is a "must do" upgrade right after upgrading the radiator and adding an EOC.
C5Z brakes are adequate for track work (with appropriate track pads) , including racing. However, they are just barely adequate, and will spread leading to tapered pads. I run Stoptech BBK and would advise you to upgrade if
A) your sanctioning organization approves it for your race class, and
B) if you can afford it
Last edited by 63Corvette; 03-11-2018 at 05:15 PM.
Adequate for track days until you get quite fast. Upgrade makes your life easier without need to bleed daily at the track and changing pads is irritating and expensive. I change my $150 front pad set once a year and I do 20 plus race days a year on Wilwood calipers with 20mm pads.
Biggest problem I had was cracking rotors every 3-4 hours on track. The calipers and braking performance was fine but the consumables were not acceptable. Adding a full floating rotor really helps. I use AP Sprint calipers front and rear with our Floating Rotor kit. As others have said a full brake upgrade is money well spent if you have the money to spend.
Like Mark said...if you track a C5Z with stock brakes and rotors get used to seeing this. You'll also get proficient at swapping out 200F failed rotors between sessions, not to mention dragging enough new rotors to the track to last the weekend.
Stainless steel lines, a top quality fluid and the aforementioned front brake cooling duct setup like the one offered by DRM are of course a given.
There are a few other "budget" or intermediate steps or options that can be explored as well, that I don't believe have been previously mentioned.
Switch to the C6 base 2-piston sliding calipers which are stiffer and less likely to spread vs. the C5 units. They bolt-on to a C5 brackets without any modifications. While you are at it install a set of DRM stainless steel pistons in those calipers to help reduce heat transfer into the fluid. The stiffer C6 base calipers are about 0.5 lbs heavier than the C5 calipers.
Short of possibly the TCE/Wilwood front brake kit that uses SLC56 4-piston calipers on those stock C5/C6 base 12.8" rotors [325mm], most other BBK's will require the use of 18" rims/tires.
After stepping up to the 18" rims/tires, an "intermediate" step could be the use of the C6 Z51 13.4" [350mm] rotor with the C6 2-piston sliding caliper along with C6 Z51 caliper mounting brackets. The larger C6 Z51 13.4" rotor is heavier that the C5/C6 base 12.8" rotor (23.1 lbs vs. 18.7 lbs). Using a 2-pcs design 13.4" rotor vs. a 1-pcs 13.4" rotor drops the weight down to about 20.5 lbs. The taller C6 Z51 caliper mounting brackets are about 0.2 lbs heavier than the C5/C6 base caliper mounting brackets. Just remember there is no free lunch here.
If you find after time that the C6 base 2-piston calipers are not holding up to the abuse, then you can setup to say the TCE/Wilwood AERO6 calipers kits again with those same 13.4" rotors.
Also remember that rear brake upgrades have limited value (other than aesthetic) unless you are running a dedicated track only car with serious aero aids and a whole lot of rear down force.
Fronts are a mandatory early upgrade. Think carefully where you're going before doing half measures and have to upgrade your upgrade. I went straight to the AP Endurance front upgrade and the only thing I'd do differently would be to do it sooner to avoid the frustration. The initial cost sting is long gone and the problem is nailed down permanently.
If your a beginner track driver, or only
do a couple track days a year the stock setup on good pads/fluid will get the job done. Start approaching upper intermediate pace with say 4-5+ days a year a brake kit will be worth looking into.
If your a beginner track driver, or only
do a couple track days a year the stock setup on good pads/fluid will get the job done. Start approaching upper intermediate pace with say 4-5+ days a year a brake kit will be worth looking into.
I have upgraded to C6Z51 front brakes, C6Z06 rotors in the back with C5 2 piston front calipers, steelbraided brakelines.
Setup not yet tested, still winter around here.
I've just started my fourth year of DE's with a C5. I do 6-8 multi day events a year and am solo intermediate to advanced depending on the group. I just made the move to an AP brake kit and here's why
I was moving up in heat range on stock c5 brakes. I was beginning to boil fluid, twice last year. I was also overheating the pads and experiencing brake fade or brake unpredictability. This really rattled my confidence last fall at VIR. Depending on how I managed a series of turns and brake zones I had either full brake pressure and force or 50-70% brake force. This began to remove the fun and introduce worry/anxiety. I had the DRM ducts and quantum spindle kit, titanium shims, and was bleeding the system for every event. I also was consuming pads (carbotech) at a pretty fast pace with pad taper being one of the bigger problems.
I did a bunch of research and landed on the AP competition kit. Just had my first event with them last weekend. These have great braking force and I'm getting used to the difference in pedal feel. I moved to srf fluid also and I'm optimistic this kit should serve me well for a long time.
Guess the point of my post was that I felt ready and it was a good time to make this upgrade. Good time meaning my skill level progression to date and the safety that I'm looking for.
I've just started my fourth year of DE's with a C5. I do 6-8 multi day events a year and am solo intermediate to advanced depending on the group. I just made the move to an AP brake kit and here's why
I was moving up in heat range on stock c5 brakes. I was beginning to boil fluid, twice last year. I was also overheating the pads and experiencing brake fade or brake unpredictability. This really rattled my confidence last fall at VIR. Depending on how I managed a series of turns and brake zones I had either full brake pressure and force or 50-70% brake force. This began to remove the fun and introduce worry/anxiety. I had the DRM ducts and quantum spindle kit, titanium shims, and was bleeding the system for every event. I also was consuming pads (carbotech) at a pretty fast pace with pad taper being one of the bigger problems.
I did a bunch of research and landed on the AP competition kit. Just had my first event with them last weekend. These have great braking force and I'm getting used to the difference in pedal feel. I moved to srf fluid also and I'm optimistic this kit should serve me well for a long time.
Guess the point of my post was that I felt ready and it was a good time to make this upgrade. Good time meaning my skill level progression to date and the safety that I'm looking for.
Yes I agree hard core BBK are the way to go for both of you. Especially on the high speed tracks like VIR where when going into turn #1 the last thing you want to be worried about are if your brakes are going to be there or not. I friend on mine that runs C5's in NASA SE in various classes has run a full width Wilwood calipers with 20mm pads with great success. Not sure what he has on his latest build.
The only point I was try making is that for someone starting out and only get their feet wet so to speak, by doing a couple HPDE the first year, they don't necessarily need to jump into the deep end with C5 front brake upgrades. I can mostly say this for myself, since I am personally on a self imposed restricted budget (bought this current C5 in Oct '17 for cheap since the PO had already spent big $$$ on the drivetrain upgrades) and so far have about $5k in parts out on the shelves in the garage just waiting for the weather to break. So I like to look at a bunch of different options and sometimes doing things in steps can make sense. I suppose that bang for the buck is my prime motivator. Let's face it, if money was not a big issue here, some of us might well be running something other than or newer than a C5.
What's the word from C5 owners on the brake performance during track days? I hear a decent amount of badmouthing on another part of this site about C5 calipers, while I've never heard a bad word from a couple friends regarding the brake operation on their C5s (both Z06 cars). What's the opinion of C5 track guys here?
Thanks.
If you plan to track your car consistently, a front big brake kit will pay for itself on consumables alone. The more you track the car, the faster the BBK will pay for itself. A big brake kit is about heat capacity. If it's designed properly, everything on the wheel end runs cooler...discs, pads, pistons, caliper, fluid...and less heat on surrounding parts such as ball joints, etc. As such, you tend to burn through consumables (pads, discs, fluid) at a much slower rate than you do with the OEM equipment.
I'd say our average customer pays for our Essex/AP Racing brake kit within about three years on consumable savings alone. During that period they get to enjoy all of the kit benefits. Fade free, consistent performance from the first stop of the day to the last stop in the last session. Reduced unsprung weight= superior handling, acceleration, and deceleration dynamics. Far less time bleeding brakes, rebuilding calipers, swapping pads and discs.
If you look closely at any fast guy who says the OEM brakes are good, you'll likely find that they are putting far, far more time and effort into maintaining their OEM brakes than one of our BBK customers. Just because the OEM parts can physically stop the car a couple of times in a row doesn't mean they are at all any fun to live with! Many of the fast guys who try to run OEM brakes have to swap discs after every event (sometimes between sessions), constantly rebuild/reseal their OEM calipers, burn through a set of pads in a single day, bleed brakes between sessions, etc. One of the most outstanding features of a proper big brake kit is that you don't have to think about it while you're at the track. That's good, because there are a million things to think and worry about out there. As long as you choose the right kit, you just drive and enjoy them. They are a life-saver if you value your time, and would rather have fun at the track instead of wrenching, bleeding, and cursing.
Resale value is the real clincher though, and the one many people forget about. Our kits tend to sell for about 65% of their brand new price on the used market. That means you get all of the kit benefits during your ownership, and you collect a nice chunk of change when you move to your next car.
Check out the video on our Youtube channel titled, "How to Plan Now for Future Brake Needs" before you make any decisions. Think now about where you'll be in a few years from now, and you'll save yourself a lot of time, money, and headaches. My advice is do it once, do it right, and don't fool yourself into thinking that the cheapest solution today will be your best long-term solution. Take your time and make sure that you get something that will do what you need it to do for the foreseeable future. There are lots of other details on our brake kits on our Youtube page as well:
One more think I'd like to elaborate upon that was mentioned elsewhere. If you are on any type of budget, buy the absolute best front brake system you can afford. These cars are hell on front brakes, but the rear C5 brakes aren't that horrible in comparison. Just adding good race pads and a quality OEM-style disc in the back get the job done for many people. Invest in the front kit, and it will pay you back over the long haul. If you want to add the rear later when budget allows, they're certainly a great upgrade. I'd much rather see our customers get a fantastic front brake kit than a mediocre front and rear kit from a lesser supplier. The front is by far the bigger band-for-the-buck, and the most critical area to address.
One last thing to keep in mind once you are committed to stepping up to the serious BBK from say; AP, StopTech, Wilwood, etc... You should seriously look into upgrading the front to the SKF X-Tracker hub bearings. For hard core track use you may also want to upgrade the front spindle/knuckles to the stronger/stiffer C6 ZR1 units. Both of these upgrades will better handle the higher loads that will be seen with the BBK and sticky tires than the factory C5 parts.
I appreciate the real world feedback here, guys. Thanks.
This thread is mostly engineering curiosity for me. I track my antique '69 (w/C4 suspension, 2750#) with Wilwood rotors and calipers. I've had good luck with the Wilwoods, but have always been curious if there were any production brake options worth considering in case I wanted to make a change down the road. Looks like the C5 parts wouldn't be a productive change from what I have.
Stainless steel lines, a top quality fluid and the aforementioned front brake cooling duct setup like the one offered by DRM are of course a given.
There are a few other "budget" or intermediate steps or options that can be explored as well, that I don't believe have been previously mentioned.
Switch to the C6 base 2-piston sliding calipers which are stiffer and less likely to spread vs. the C5 units. They bolt-on to a C5 brackets without any modifications. While you are at it install a set of DRM stainless steel pistons in those calipers to help reduce heat transfer into the fluid. The stiffer C6 base calipers are about 0.5 lbs heavier than the C5 calipers.
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The above and a set of 2-piece DBA rotors from KNS Brakes were good enough to win SCCA T-1 SoPac Championship in 2010. Some other cars were running even bigger rotors and aftermarket calipers.
Prior to that I was doing like others said, often replacing cracked rotors during a race/track day weekend.
03-10-2018, 06:28 PM
C5 brakes: Good, bad, adequate? Comments please.
