Ask the coach
06-08-2018, 06:08 PM
#41
Instructor
06-09-2018, 11:58 AM
#43
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Deal's Gap 2004 NCM Motorsports track supporter
Posts: 13,915
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Adam, this is another car setup question but I know some guys like to run toe out up front and some like neutral. What are your thoughts on this? What should we look for as far as effect on other dynamics? I think many drivers don't really know what can be improved when the car just doesn't feel right. Unfortunately, many of us don't spend enough frequent time at the track to really get a good feel of what the car is telling us.
06-09-2018, 12:13 PM
#44
Adam, this is another car setup question but I know some guys like to run toe out up front and some like neutral. What are your thoughts on this? What should we look for as far as effect on other dynamics? I think many drivers don't really know what can be improved when the car just doesn't feel right. Unfortunately, many of us don't spend enough frequent time at the track to really get a good feel of what the car is telling us.
For road course racing, front toe isn't going to make a big difference to times unless you start using really high toe angles that cause drag. I would just set a small amount of toe out and be done with it. It's at the bottom of the priority list. We have a setup guide on our site that talks a bit more in depth about toe.
Last edited by AdamBrouillard; 06-09-2018 at 12:14 PM.
06-09-2018, 03:09 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
The women must be separated and individually instructed. This can be a time consuming and labor intensive task, but I am willing to offer my services.
06-09-2018, 04:51 PM
#47
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Deal's Gap 2004 NCM Motorsports track supporter
Posts: 13,915
Received 1,103 Likes
on
717 Posts
Toe will mostly just change steering feel and car response around center. You shouldn't really be turning in fast anyway so you'll mostly notice it during quick transitions like some chicanes. More toe-in will give you faster car response, and a tighter centered feeling on the wheel. Toe out will loosen up the steering wheel some, but give you a more gradual turn-in response. Caster and camber thrust will have a similar effect on steering feel, so toe is just another adjustment on top off those effects.
For road course racing, front toe isn't going to make a big difference to times unless you start using really high toe angles that cause drag. I would just set a small amount of toe out and be done with it. It's at the bottom of the priority list. We have a setup guide on our site that talks a bit more in depth about toe.
For road course racing, front toe isn't going to make a big difference to times unless you start using really high toe angles that cause drag. I would just set a small amount of toe out and be done with it. It's at the bottom of the priority list. We have a setup guide on our site that talks a bit more in depth about toe.
Thanks, I have a particular one in mind that I have been wrestling with at the end of a very fast straight.
06-11-2018, 07:50 AM
#49
Left foot vs right foot braking...
I was listening to an interview with Jordan Taylor, and I was surprised to learn that he right-foot brakes. He said that he actually left-foot braked for a year, but then switched back to right-foot braking after his engineer asked him to in order to lower fuel consumption. He says that now that he's back to right-foot braking, he does not ever want to go back to braking with his left foot.
I'm surprised that there are still a few guys at the top level of the sport who right-foot brake. I know that in one of your books you talk about left-foot braking using the throttle and brake at the same time as a way to essentially alter the brake bias. Do you think that at the top level of the sport, someone who is right-foot braking would be at a disadvantage?
I was listening to an interview with Jordan Taylor, and I was surprised to learn that he right-foot brakes. He said that he actually left-foot braked for a year, but then switched back to right-foot braking after his engineer asked him to in order to lower fuel consumption. He says that now that he's back to right-foot braking, he does not ever want to go back to braking with his left foot.
I'm surprised that there are still a few guys at the top level of the sport who right-foot brake. I know that in one of your books you talk about left-foot braking using the throttle and brake at the same time as a way to essentially alter the brake bias. Do you think that at the top level of the sport, someone who is right-foot braking would be at a disadvantage?
06-11-2018, 12:46 PM
#50
Le Mans Master
06-11-2018, 02:02 PM
#51
Left foot vs right foot braking...
I was listening to an interview with Jordan Taylor, and I was surprised to learn that he right-foot brakes. He said that he actually left-foot braked for a year, but then switched back to right-foot braking after his engineer asked him to in order to lower fuel consumption. He says that now that he's back to right-foot braking, he does not ever want to go back to braking with his left foot.
I'm surprised that there are still a few guys at the top level of the sport who right-foot brake. I know that in one of your books you talk about left-foot braking using the throttle and brake at the same time as a way to essentially alter the brake bias. Do you think that at the top level of the sport, someone who is right-foot braking would be at a disadvantage?
I was listening to an interview with Jordan Taylor, and I was surprised to learn that he right-foot brakes. He said that he actually left-foot braked for a year, but then switched back to right-foot braking after his engineer asked him to in order to lower fuel consumption. He says that now that he's back to right-foot braking, he does not ever want to go back to braking with his left foot.
I'm surprised that there are still a few guys at the top level of the sport who right-foot brake. I know that in one of your books you talk about left-foot braking using the throttle and brake at the same time as a way to essentially alter the brake bias. Do you think that at the top level of the sport, someone who is right-foot braking would be at a disadvantage?
Being able to add stability by combining brake and throttle can cause problems however as it might cause a less skilled driver to overuse it. Not only will they be slower, but they will use more gas and cause extra brake wear. It's a powerful technique if used well though.
It's actually most useful in lower series where it can provide a significant performance advantage. Low powered, open differential cars need a very loose setup for a good exit. This makes them very prone to oversteer on corner entry as you approach the apex. Many drivers just end up getting on the throttle before the apex so the car is stable, but of course this is slower than optimal. If you throttle brake, you can maintain ideal balance during entry.
06-11-2018, 02:42 PM
#52
Trail braking vs straight line braking.
If you know the track, I'm going to use Thunderhill as an example. T8; a fast left hander kink that exits up hill with an apex speed around 98-102 on a Z06 with cup tires. T14 is a slow right hander after the back straight with an apex speed on around 53-55mph with a flat entry and exit.
T8:
T14:
After experimenting many diff lines and techniques, atleast in my setup and preference, I noticed that braking in a straight line before T8 allowed me to go slightly positive throttle before the apex which would nicely balance and load up the car and then drive the car up the hill smoothly at full throttle. When trying to trail brake, the car would get to the apex quicker but it took longer to get the weight on the rear which meant I was slower to get back on the gas or worse, too aggressive trying to force it and ending up with some fun snaps.
In contrast, if I was to do the same in T14, the car would start washing out the front with heavy understeer and I'd have to get out of the gas which is costly since T15 is flat (most of the time) and leading onto the main straight.
For T14, keeping the brakes on even lightly to the apex tucked the front end into the turn and get me pointed. The transition from brake to gas was less sensitive and since the car is pointed, I could accelerate aggressively to track edge without any drama.
What is happening in these corners that favors one braking style over another?
If you don't know the track, perhaps Sonoma/Sears T10 (fast right) T11 (slow right hairpin) are similar in how I approached the braking in a similar fashion.
If you know the track, I'm going to use Thunderhill as an example. T8; a fast left hander kink that exits up hill with an apex speed around 98-102 on a Z06 with cup tires. T14 is a slow right hander after the back straight with an apex speed on around 53-55mph with a flat entry and exit.
T8:
After experimenting many diff lines and techniques, atleast in my setup and preference, I noticed that braking in a straight line before T8 allowed me to go slightly positive throttle before the apex which would nicely balance and load up the car and then drive the car up the hill smoothly at full throttle. When trying to trail brake, the car would get to the apex quicker but it took longer to get the weight on the rear which meant I was slower to get back on the gas or worse, too aggressive trying to force it and ending up with some fun snaps.
In contrast, if I was to do the same in T14, the car would start washing out the front with heavy understeer and I'd have to get out of the gas which is costly since T15 is flat (most of the time) and leading onto the main straight.
For T14, keeping the brakes on even lightly to the apex tucked the front end into the turn and get me pointed. The transition from brake to gas was less sensitive and since the car is pointed, I could accelerate aggressively to track edge without any drama.
What is happening in these corners that favors one braking style over another?
If you don't know the track, perhaps Sonoma/Sears T10 (fast right) T11 (slow right hairpin) are similar in how I approached the braking in a similar fashion.
06-11-2018, 02:58 PM
#53
Le Mans Master
I'm looking more at driving sims. Is it really worth anything if I have a fixed seat setup?
06-11-2018, 03:57 PM
#54
Trail braking vs straight line braking.
If you know the track, I'm going to use Thunderhill as an example. T8; a fast left hander kink that exits up hill with an apex speed around 98-102 on a Z06 with cup tires. T14 is a slow right hander after the back straight with an apex speed on around 53-55mph with a flat entry and exit.
T8: https://youtu.be/7Mi3p8Y7uOI?t=58
T14: https://youtu.be/7Mi3p8Y7uOI?t=98
After experimenting many diff lines and techniques, atleast in my setup and preference, I noticed that braking in a straight line before T8 allowed me to go slightly positive throttle before the apex which would nicely balance and load up the car and then drive the car up the hill smoothly at full throttle. When trying to trail brake, the car would get to the apex quicker but it took longer to get the weight on the rear which meant I was slower to get back on the gas or worse, too aggressive trying to force it and ending up with some fun snaps.
In contrast, if I was to do the same in T14, the car would start washing out the front with heavy understeer and I'd have to get out of the gas which is costly since T15 is flat (most of the time) and leading onto the main straight.
For T14, keeping the brakes on even lightly to the apex tucked the front end into the turn and get me pointed. The transition from brake to gas was less sensitive and since the car is pointed, I could accelerate aggressively to track edge without any drama.
What is happening in these corners that favors one braking style over another?
If you don't know the track, perhaps Sonoma/Sears T10 (fast right) T11 (slow right hairpin) are similar in how I approached the braking in a similar fashion.
If you know the track, I'm going to use Thunderhill as an example. T8; a fast left hander kink that exits up hill with an apex speed around 98-102 on a Z06 with cup tires. T14 is a slow right hander after the back straight with an apex speed on around 53-55mph with a flat entry and exit.
T8: https://youtu.be/7Mi3p8Y7uOI?t=58
T14: https://youtu.be/7Mi3p8Y7uOI?t=98
After experimenting many diff lines and techniques, atleast in my setup and preference, I noticed that braking in a straight line before T8 allowed me to go slightly positive throttle before the apex which would nicely balance and load up the car and then drive the car up the hill smoothly at full throttle. When trying to trail brake, the car would get to the apex quicker but it took longer to get the weight on the rear which meant I was slower to get back on the gas or worse, too aggressive trying to force it and ending up with some fun snaps.
In contrast, if I was to do the same in T14, the car would start washing out the front with heavy understeer and I'd have to get out of the gas which is costly since T15 is flat (most of the time) and leading onto the main straight.
For T14, keeping the brakes on even lightly to the apex tucked the front end into the turn and get me pointed. The transition from brake to gas was less sensitive and since the car is pointed, I could accelerate aggressively to track edge without any drama.
What is happening in these corners that favors one braking style over another?
If you don't know the track, perhaps Sonoma/Sears T10 (fast right) T11 (slow right hairpin) are similar in how I approached the braking in a similar fashion.
No matter the corner, you want to be on the gas and accelerating as you pass the apex. In a higher speed corner like t8, although you have little time to "trail brake" you can still decelerate to the apex. You may have a little bit of throttle prior to the apex, but you are still mostly decelerating to the apex because of tire and aero drag. Check your speed readout. You could push your entry a little bit further, but your entry looks pretty good overall.
It's important to understand that you should always be decelerating to and then accelerating from the apex, but that doesn't mean that is the actual brake release and throttle application points. While in shorter corners, you will typically brake all we way to the apex, In corners with really long entries you often should be off the brakes and on the throttle a bit before the apex. If you look at the speed readout though, you are still decelerating right to the apex.
Knowing how to do all this properly requires the ability to track your overall speed and movement through the corner. The correct driver inputs required will simply follow whatever the car needs at any instant to do what you need it to.
06-11-2018, 03:59 PM
#55
The Fanatec Clubsport Wheel with 2.5 base are really good.
Above that are the Direct Drive wheels which are very expensive. Fanatec is releasing their Direct Drive model in July so that might worth waiting for. That's what I'm doing for now.
Pedals are Fanatec V3 Pedals for good high entry. Then HPP pedals and Heusinkveld if you really want to get car like feel. Since you're in US, HPP is the way to go I'd say.
http://www.hppsimulation.com/7-hpp-3-pedal
https://heusinkveld.com/products/sim...v=79cba1185463
Motion is the last piece of the puzzle. I'd strong suggest finding some sim forums and seeing if someone will let you test drive their setup. The people in the hobby are very friendly and helpful to new comers.
06-11-2018, 06:10 PM
#56
Le Mans Master
Find someone who will let you try out a high end wheel and pedal setup on Assetto Corsa/iRacing. There's plenty of feedback in there to catch and feel the car without the movement of the seat.
The Fanatec Clubsport Wheel with 2.5 base are really good.
Above that are the Direct Drive wheels which are very expensive. Fanatec is releasing their Direct Drive model in July so that might worth waiting for. That's what I'm doing for now.
Pedals are Fanatec V3 Pedals for good high entry. Then HPP pedals and Heusinkveld if you really want to get car like feel. Since you're in US, HPP is the way to go I'd say.
http://www.hppsimulation.com/7-hpp-3-pedal
https://heusinkveld.com/products/sim...v=79cba1185463
Motion is the last piece of the puzzle. I'd strong suggest finding some sim forums and seeing if someone will let you test drive their setup. The people in the hobby are very friendly and helpful to new comers.
The Fanatec Clubsport Wheel with 2.5 base are really good.
Above that are the Direct Drive wheels which are very expensive. Fanatec is releasing their Direct Drive model in July so that might worth waiting for. That's what I'm doing for now.
Pedals are Fanatec V3 Pedals for good high entry. Then HPP pedals and Heusinkveld if you really want to get car like feel. Since you're in US, HPP is the way to go I'd say.
http://www.hppsimulation.com/7-hpp-3-pedal
https://heusinkveld.com/products/sim...v=79cba1185463
Motion is the last piece of the puzzle. I'd strong suggest finding some sim forums and seeing if someone will let you test drive their setup. The people in the hobby are very friendly and helpful to new comers.
06-11-2018, 06:17 PM
#57
What's your thought on gauging tire usage? Some folks swear by taking temps, but of course that can be easier said than done, others claim it's not worth it. What about wear marks, again some say you should be rolling over the tire right to the ^ others say it's only a gauge. Tire pressure? Etc. Is it just best to use lap times and forget the rest? Might be the same answer across all but I run Hoosier A7's and run W2W. Thanks
06-11-2018, 07:00 PM
#58
06-12-2018, 07:09 AM
#59
https://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/wiki/buyingguide
https://www.racedepartment.com/forums/
You'll need a powerful PC so if you budget includes building a high end PC also that will limit the spend in other areas.
https://www.racedepartment.com/forums/
You'll need a powerful PC so if you budget includes building a high end PC also that will limit the spend in other areas.
06-12-2018, 09:44 AM
#60
What's your thought on gauging tire usage? Some folks swear by taking temps, but of course that can be easier said than done, others claim it's not worth it. What about wear marks, again some say you should be rolling over the tire right to the ^ others say it's only a gauge. Tire pressure? Etc. Is it just best to use lap times and forget the rest? Might be the same answer across all but I run Hoosier A7's and run W2W. Thanks
https://www.paradigmshiftracing.com/...ar-setup-guide