Matt_27

Can't do that with Michelin PS4S tires. Different compound and tread pattern outside vs inside. Good thing to do with symmetric tires though.

Dan H.

Damn, glad I've been following this thread! These wheels are less expensive than Bob's House Z06 rears.

Sox-Fan

When you call him please let him know that you found the link here on these forums. Thank you.

67Ranger

That's disappointing, didn't know that

k24556

Looking at the gravel pick up pattern which represents a street driving condition, you are over-inflating the tires. M-4A/S's will not like high pressure and heat. They will turn to crap once hot and the hot pressure gets above about 36psi. You are getting body roll in the turns and moving the contact patch to the sidewalls. All-seasons aren't the best, they can't take the heat, but my guess is too much air and poor driving technique are your real enemies. ( That may be why the tread was separating from the carcass on your first tires) That can be corrected by three things: 1. later apex (driving technique). You would be surprised how much better your car will perform with a good coach in the right seat saying "wait..... wait..... wait......, turn!" . It is a huge mistake not to get coached when starting this game. When you apex too early you will get a lot of tire squeal and for a long time, With the M-AS/4's their soft side walls, lots of tire roll that can't be fixed by increasing camber. Best to slow in, late apex, get less body roll and be on the tire sidewalls for less overall time and load. 2. camber increase, For where you are in this game, probably -1.2 camber and 0 toe (assuming you are driving a C5 or C6) should be a good compromise for street and occasional track. BUT toe has to be 0 for street driving and won't be a liability for you with your experience level. 3. stiffer sway bar (for starters). Once you get past a stiffer sway bar, then the shock damping rate and strength need to match the spring constant, so you really can't just go to stiffer shocks without screwing up the suspension performance. After just a sway bar, the slope gets mighty slippery from the $$$$.

Spend your money on seat time and getting a good coach to help you. There are lots of people that drive exactly what you have and are coaches, drive to the track and home on street tires and pass everything on the track. Learning to drive a road course in the winter is: GO TO THE indoor ARRIVE and DRIVE KART facilities. Sessions are usually $20 or so, and if you can do three a day, at first, you might be super-human. However, the lessons on slow-in, hitting the apex, etc, are taught in spades at the Kart track. Ask the 10 year old kids that pass you to tell you what you are doing wrong. They will know because they are trying to pass you and you are in their way.

SouthernSon

I see you are in Quebec.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...king/index.htm

NoradIV

M-4A/S's? I am using PS4S here.

Also, I put 35 on the track, then lower right after to 30 (when cold).

Yes I am working on my technique, as I have been the whole summer. I get instructors when I can, but they don't have a lot to tell me so far. Couple line things, but my control of the car, according to them, is very good. I've been running only on one track this year, and it is a very small track with a lot of tight turns. Regardless, I have to make these tires last longer; this year, I had much more money than I will in the next years, and I will not be able to keep this pace.

Everyone I talked to said seat time > upgrades, so it's what I've been doing so far. (Also, I prefer spending time on the track than in the yard)

When I touch the suspension, I'd like to do it all at once instead of having a "in between" setup where everything is not balanced.

This winter, when the season is over, I'll establish a budget, then try to make a plan and come here and have a talk with you guys on what is the best approach for the next season. The biggest thing will be to try to increase the lifespan of consumables (brake duct to make brakes last longer, smaller rims to get cheaper tires, etc).

Please, tell me if you think my assumptions are wrong. I am not very good at this.

NoradIV

Oh, I am already aware of that, I am not driving this car at any temp below 40F, but thanks anyway!

k24556

Michelin all seasons /4S I may have gotten the letters wrong, but basically M's latest all season design. good tires, and I think you will find that with a little bit of camber mentioned in a previous post and start with pressures like 26-27psi, then when the tires are hottest, check them and relieve back to 36 hot. This of course depends on how hot it is that day. Certainly, your mention of higher pressures will lead you to some trouble.

So which C5 are you driving, a base Targa Coupe or a -Z? If a -Z, then you don't have to do much at all. If a base non-Z51, then a bigger sway bars will help you some. That's all for the time being

Basically the C5 and the C6 (with some notable exceptions) unmolested with street tires will almost always understeer in almost all turns at any track. That is a good bias for a person starting out. It means that when you over drive the car, F-up a turn, the front tires will lose grip and the front will plow. The technique for getting out of this is to first recognize you have to give up a little track to get control back (skid pad work will help here). Now the front tires will begin squealing. Next you lift the throttle slightly, or if you are already off the gas, you need to open the steering input just a bit. let's say the steering wheel is turned 45deg. take out about half that steering input in a consistent cadence, : unsteer, pause, enter some steering back. Now where you go back is less than where you were, or give another correction. If you are understeering, and you take too much out to quick, add braking or lift a lot of throttle, you will enter into a snap oversteer, That can be hard on the exterior of the car, depending on the run off areas of the turn. Most folks starting out grip the steering wheel too hard. Hands at 3&9, thumbs pointed up and only the grip you need to control the car. You can always grip tighter. The reason for this is that besides tire squealing, you will feel a faint rumble in the steering wheel at the onset of understeer and you can catch it sooner. Oversteer is different, your butt-O-meter is your gage for that. Even better if your shoulder blades are touching the seat back. you will get lateral G's at the onset of oversteer. For oversteer, you turn into the skid, and you can use a similar cadence turn, hesitate, recover. Don't lift throttle, though most do and this makes the spin worse as the front gets loaded more when you lift.

Now going to a square setup will change the characteristic of the car and potentially make it prone to oversteer, as you put tires with much more grip on the front. Please save that for two years out. There is plenty of time to go there and to slicks or track-friendly tires. Ditto for suspension changes. Learn you and your relationship with the car FIRST!!!! Then you can make intelligent decisions about mods.

The big exception is brakes. Whoa is much more valuable than go. Ask any racer where he wins, it is not in the straights, but out-braking the competitor and "sneaking in" to his line making it yours. Spend money on good pads, rotors and especially keep the fluid fresh. I do a big flush once a year and every weekend, I flush about 1/2 liter, enough to make sure clean un-boiled fluid is removed from the calipers. The brake fluid does not circulate so the bad stuff stays in the calipers or the lines leading to the calipers.

That way, you can brake in a straight line hard, scrub the right amount of speed, make crisp turn-ins.

A good investment would be a good dash cam. A GoPro is the gold standard, but for $50 US you can by a refurb Cobra 855 BT. Aim this at the track. I like the Cobra, cheap, and if you wire it to a switched circuit, it will auto turn on and you won't forget to turn it on at the grid. Then get another to shoot your head and hands so you can see how you respond to chaos. This where you can learn if you are on the "line" and you can post them here and ask for free advice. I will bet (again) that you will find you are turning in too early a lot.

NoradIV

I do not mean to be an ***, but the Pilot Sport 4S are summer tires. I have verified that information before purchasing. The reason why I insist on that point is because I want to know if the rest of your argument still applies to summer ties.

I like the PS4S because they are very forgiving and predictable. They have this wide zone of "hey, you are at the limit now, mind slowing down a bit" instead of gripping and suddenly just let go. However, during hot days in summer, they do overheat and start to feel greasy.

2002 Z06, RD with integrated EoC, DRM transmission and diff coolers, 19x9.5 front wheels, 20x10.5 rear wheels (these wheels came with the car), PFC11 brake pads with stainless brake lines, Gulf RS1000 brake fluid and OMP+Marrad bracket. Other than that, the car is stock.

I am already familiar with that. I find balancing this car quite easy; throttle is all I need to control the understeer/oversteer. To a newbie like me, I find this car unforgivable; if you lose the rear too much, its over. However, if you listen to it, it talks to you a lot, and it is a car that will reward you if you listen to it.

This is what I am doing. The only modification I have done when I purchased the car was Hawk HP+ pads, stainless brakes lines and a race seat, because, lets face it, the stock seat is ****. Plus, mine was broken anyway.

I ran two session a week since April 30th, plus at least 6 track days.The only mods I have done during the summer were reliability ones; everything was

I am doing a complete flush about 3 times in the summer, and I bleed the brakes after every events. In any case, the factory brakes are unbelievable *****. Everyone has told me my technique is the problem, but even someone who know how to race tried my car and actually had a bad mushy pedal after about 10 minutes, it feels like boiling fluid (pedal will go all the way down), but I get this problem even with castrol XRF. Maybe it isn't fluid, I don't know yet. I wanted to run a full season before buying any mods, I did cooling because I was going to blow up stuff (actually, I have already damaged my diff because of overheating), but this winter, I'll spend a lot of time trowing the entire brake system in the fire and installing a whole new setup.

I use my cellphone. I can post a video if you are interested, but the only video I have was after 5 weeks of not going to the track because I had the bad tires, so it won't be representative of how I usually drive on the track.

Soloontario

Norad, I have a similar car in the same country (just in Ontario and not La Belle Province). I too was discouraged from running a square set up when I first got my C5Z but went ahead anyway in an effort to give me more flexibility with tire wear and placement. I have driven the car with almost the OE stagger in tires sizes with BFG rivals and found the understeer was pretty bad and am much happier with the square set up.

One of your biggest obstacles is the size of your rims. It is way cheaper to use 18s all round and I suspect the car would be easier to drive (as well as faster due to not having as much rotational mass).

You also desperately need camber. I do not do a lot of street miles on my car but run on the street with neg 2.7 up front and neg 1.5 camber in the rear. I have no issue with wear of the inner tire surface but might if I did a lot more miles. BTW I usually start pressures at about 27 cold ending up with 35-36 psi hot..

As for your brake issues, HP+ pads are not up to the task at the front and likely not even at the rear. My personal preference after trying numerous different pads is Raybestos ST43s.and yes I think they are superior to the PFC11s you mentioned. I have also had a lot of success buying better quality front rotors (i.e. not OEM or NAPA) without having to go to 2 piece rotors. The better rotors last longer and prevent a lot of pad taper.

NoradIV

Yes, I have been looking at various options, most of them taking about 1/4 of my yearly track budget. I'll be looking at rims when I have money, which should happen somewhere in february.

maj75

k24556

About where you want to be hot right off the track

maj75

NoradIV

Sorry for the late reply guys, I haven't been around since late summer season due to work complications.

I would say that is "warm", but not "Hot". I usually get from work to the track, then inflate them to 35PSI at the track.

What I would do is drive home, then the next morning lower everything to 30 cold. Usually, I would have 32-33 by then.

AND0

Is your car aligned to track specs yet?

Sub8

Most likely you're tire pressure is too high.

You should aim for 32-34psi immediately after you come into the pits.

That could be as low as 20psi when the tire is cold.

NoradIV

Not yet, need to find and purchase rear tie rods, then replace them because they are currently loose AF.

That is what I had, but that has caused the tire problems I have shown earlier.

AND0

This should be pretty obvious, but if you have a know problem, like worn out Rear Tie Rods, what are you doing tracking the car or trying to chase down a "correct" tire pressure?