apex26

Is it worth becoming an instructor? How dangerous is it really? I've met instructors who dread going out and are visibly afraid and negative, and other guys who sail through it naturally. A racer friend says it's the most fun he has! My first instructor said he did 15 days this year, and of course the cost was zero. Trying to reason it out, you take a newbee and get him up to say maybe 80%, the rest he's going to learn doing seat time solo plus classroom. Is that about right? If money was no object, how many guys would do it? Surely it's gratifying to help develop someone. How much classroom is there? Of course, a Hans harness that works with any belts would only be sane. Thanks in advance.

maj75

Mark@AMT Motorsport

Depends on the group. I only instruct with Audi Club at this point because the instructor corps is top notch, and the students skew older and safer and wiser. It's the only group I instruct where I always have a good time and am excited to see the progress of the students. Back when I was a kid driving a GTI being an instructor and driving for free for the weekend was worth it. Now being married with a son, and racing a Corvette, saving $400 for an entry fee is the least of my concerns.

davidfarmer

if you hang out at events with instructors that are "visibly afraid" you are either at the wrong events, or know the wrong instructors. The vast majority of students are eager to learn, safely, and I've only been really uncomfortable a few times. Every group I've run with, in 30 years, makes it CLEAR that the instructor has the responsibility to pull the plug on a student that isn't playing by the rules, so there is no reason to ever have more than one session in an unsafe situation.

I get tired, or physically uncomfortable at times instructing, but fear and danger should be very very limited. But do it because you want to, NOT to save a few dollars on your entry!

Dan H.

Interested to see the comments here. I have three 2019 goals
1. SCCA Instructor School
2. Try out a NASA event and learn about racing
3. Try Time Trials (SCCA)

Teaching is one of my favorite things to do at work. Track driving is one of my favorite things to do when not at work. So I think I might really enjoy instructing. I've ridden right seat with friends and had a blast giving them pointers. I was invited to instructor school this year but had a conflict (paw patrol live, family first!). This next spring it will be on the calendar first.

My challenge is I get motion sick when I right along with others in the past. Mostly instructors who has complete missile race cars would stir me up. I'm trying the patch next weekend and will ride in my buddies STI to see how I hold up. I want to try it, I hope my guts cooperate!

Besides teaching, I think it gives back and just adds to the whole experience of being at the track for a weekend. I'm looking forward to trying it.

Dan

z06801

I agree and I really get a lot out of it. Miller is where i'm at and its a fairly safe track in general, but your safety is in your hands by not hesitating to control your student, I really think that a communicator is important and will not instruct without one.
I've been able to drive some great cars also. My race car is a ST1 C5 Z06 and my street car has been a modded 911 turbo so I tend to get every wackado in their new Porsche GT3 or Z06 , but most turn out to be really nice and are eager to learn so they listen well. In all my years (which isn't too many compared to some here) I've only had to park a couple of drivers,

TrackAire

I am not an "instructor" but have helped new drivers when asked at private track rental events. Here is what I found and a couple my suggestions if you decide to go forward with this.

1. When instructing a student for the first time, I insist that I drive the car for 3 or 4 laps minimum to show them the correct line, braking points and what expected speeds the car can sustain in corners, etc. It also gives me a chance to feel out the students car and verify that the brakes work ok, tire pressures and alignment aren't wonky, etc. If a car has a serious handling issues the student will never be able to learn correctly, no matter how good of an instructor you are. A couple of the cars I've been in had issues that would have never allowed a student to brake and turn in on my commands.
2. I've never used a communicator but if instructing it would be invaluable. Having to yell instructions and commands especially when both of you are wearing a full face helmet is dangerous and often stresses out the student. Open windows and loud exhausts make the situation even worse. They can't follow your commands if they can't hear you.
3. Lead follows are a waste of time....especially if an instructor has more than one car that is following him. The line is only as good as the lead car. If the second or third car are off line then it is a conga line of missed apexes and mistakes. I often tell students that being off line by one tire width is enough to screw up the next series of corners, yet they often think they are "on top" of the apex but are three feet away. Lead follows just aren't efficient in my opinion.
4. I would only get into a car and instruct if I was wearing a HAN's device.....a Simpson Hybrid type unit may be the hot ticket for students cars with stock 3 point belts.

Good luck with whatever you decide!!

Gary2KC5

the 1st question you need to answer is why I want to instruct. is it to reduce cost of the admission? a very viable reason. is it to give your knowledge to others? if so the answer is yes. if it's to reduce cost the trade off is your weekend, mostly Saturday will be really busing (if your need to change brake pads it could be a challenge). I think the risks are minimal, but they are there. instructing can open up a new aspect with people//org/track/etc.

I've instructed before for an NCM event at Road America; had 2 students: one with a C6 Z06 like mine but stock, and a guy with a 1976 C3. The guy with the C6Z was able to ride with me in my car and he really put it together and was an easy move from newbie to the next level. the other guy had the challenge of driving a stock 30 year old C3 that I could hear the frame creek in many of the corners...hard to suggest moving him up to the next level just b/c of the aging car.

personally, instructing takes away too much time from me during an event (unless you are running with a car club with 5 run groups) when you have 3 run groups and are getting 4-5 session/day. If you run with the PCA, BMW, Audi, etc. then instructing gives you something to do during the hour(s) between sessions. the car clubs are more focused on getting folks with their make to the track and have a heavy focus on beginners and instructors. The track event orgs have a focus on getting customers track time. So where you instruct has a big impact on your experience. .

spdislife

I instruct with PCA here in the Northeast and find it to be a very rewarding and challenging experience. I think the risk is minimal, however present. Managing that risk is determined by how an instructor takes control of his/her student. I agree with David Farmer that the majority are eager to learn. My primary goal with every student is to send them and their car home after an event in the same condition they both arrived in. With more experienced students merely clocking seat time, it's finding some subtle ares of opportunity that improve their performance. With a newbie, it's taking them from that day one first overwhelming session and guiding them along as they build confidence and proficiency. Whether you choose to instruct or not, good luck to you and keep the shiny side up!

apex26

Thanks for the informative comments. The danger seems more controllable than one would think at first blush. It's worth keeping in mind. I had two check rides scheduled this year, but one got rained out--track closed, and the other blew an oil line. Next year's goals will be to get to NASA TT racing, and possibly try instructing. After all, it's easy to say no thanks if it isn't rewarding.

argonaut

I've been doing DEs for over 10 years and instructing for the last 4. I mostly started instructing because a) I was getting bored with typical DEs and b) many of my track buddies were moving into instructing. So I gave it a try. I attended several instructing 'schools' (BMW ITS is by far the best one) and got to know some of the track day promoters who invited me to sign up as an instructor. Beyond the obvious pros and cons, here are a few other takes on it:

• By far the majority of students care a great deal for their own skin and that of the car and want to go home safe and sound without any bent sheet metal
• Today's uber high horsepower cars don't scare me in the least - not only are the nannies/computers in those cars extremely impressive but those are in general the guys who most want to protect their expensive machinery.
• Are there idiots out there with more money than brains....yea, but few and far between and you are even less likely to be assigned one as a student. As a newer instructor, the promoter is not going to be assigning you to sit in the right seat of a 2018 Ferrari Challenge car.
• The only student I every really had a problem with was a guy in a 911 Turbo who spoke very little English. That was a bit scary at times but the car is so good, it saved our *** once or twice.
• Instructors get lots of benefits beyond the low or zero entry fee: you get lunch, usually you don't have to go thru 'tech', you can drive in any session when you don't have a student.
• Many times instructors get their own run group as well and its usually a real pleasure to drive with those guys - low car count, everybody knows what they are doing, many times its 'pass anywhere, no point bye required' rules
• It will make you a better driver - the amount of time you spend on track is insane and with Newbies you get plenty of opportunity to look everywhere and at everything - i.e. it greatly improves your 'vision' on track which translates directly back to your own driving
• Some students you click with. Others not so much. Every student is different.
• A lot of guys are just doing a 'bucket list' item and may never come back and aren't particularly interested in learning much more than the basics - they can be really mellow and casual. This often leads to a boring day in the right seat - saying the same thing over and over - brake, turn-in, eyes up, etc.
• But then you get a young guy, quick learner, eager to take in as much as possible, who listens and improves and is a complete joy to work with...these are the moments you live for as an instructor.

So I can't say I'm always thrilled to be in the right seat, there are times when its monotonous and boring. But other times its awesome and frankly, if it weren't for instructing I'd have probably given up the sport by now.

Spaggs

I've been instructing for almost 30 years, both as a hobby and professionally. The reward of getting "it" to click with a student is priceless. It is an awesome feeling when a former student is seen on TV racing or when one becomes an Instructor himself and credits your teaching to his success.
​​​​​​The one thing you have to keep in mind is that while you are in that right seat, you are responsible for what happens to that car. I've actually had to kick a student out of an event because of his actions/attitude. One guy I threatened to pull the E brake halfway down the strait away if he didn't start hitting the apexes. Also, that passenger side mirror is your mirror. Sometimes I've had turned the rear view mirror away from the driver so he would consintrate on the line.
Until a driver demonstrates that he can hit apexes, don't let him loose with the speed.
Good luck. Instructing is a kick in the pants.
Spaggs

Captain Buddha

I instruct at the track I'm a member at (Eagles Canyon Raceway, DFW Area). Have been doing it for a few years - I do it to help folks have FUN in a SAFE environment and to GIVE BACK to the SPORT that I LOVE!! It's a blast! It also makes me a better driver, more track time is always good - you pick up an amazing amount of things when you are going around the track and *not* have to drive. You gain a LOT of what I call BUTT FEEL...that is a HUGE help! I usually do not drive one of the race cars when I instruct but I usually do a few laps in whatever street car that I've driven out there that day. If you feel at all apprehensive about instructing do NOT do it! Also - as an instructor (at least with our track) we have "say" over pulling the student, i.e. - if they are a problem case or if we feel these need someone else (i.e. - another instructor) that might be better at communicating with them... Also, if you do not feel comfortable in the car then (i.e. - it's a danger to itself and others) do NOT allow it on track - let the Chief Instructor / Grid folks sort it out. Hope this helps!

jlutherva

I beg to differ with your conclusion on "danger" . I've been instructing since 2012 and have had 119 students at various levels, but mostly newbies. I've only had two students that were slightly out of control and I've never had to park anyone. I've been in four crashes at tracks; two at VIR and two at Road Atlanta. None were caused by students that were out of control. Two wrecks were with students, two by myself. The first student crash was with a club that shall go nameless but the instructor would meet the student in the pit-out line. (I don't know of any club that does that anymore.) I asked him about his tires & brakes and all sounded fine so we were off. At relatively low speed and on-line, he spun the car in Hog Pen and banged a guardrail hard enough to set off the air bags. It turned out the tires were very old and hard as rocks. The second student crash was due to boiled brake fluid going into T10A at Road Atlanta. The student had a shop flush the brake system with DOT 4 and install track pads but he didn't know what brand of DOT 4 they used. I'm betting it was the cheap stuff. The wreck was brutal - three people to the hospital, two totaled cars.

At this point, I'm considering giving up the sport. I've got a few more events to instruct this year then I'll probably sell my race car and find something else to do. My major concern is another crash that leaves me with broken bones. I'm too old to mend quickly!

I agree with everything Argonaut said. The people at these track events are really a fine group of individuals and that poses a problem - most of all my friends are track rats. I'm still in contact with many of my previous students.

I would recommend you take the instructor school and get your MSF Level 2 certification then give instructing a shot and see if you like it. You'll learn a lot at instructing school and also meet a lot of other future instructors that you'll probably develop relationships with since you will be running in the same circles.

Good luck with your decision!
Jim

apex26

These are the thoughtful responses hoped for. There are others out there and hopefully they will chime in, if nothing else but to agree. I'm older also, and not retiring yet, so an injury presents a danger to my current lifestyle beyond the obvious risk of injury. That would alter my wife's lifestyle also, which might be selfish to gamble with. NASA always has an instructor ride along for solo group two guys, and one of mine was Joe, who was age 80, and a great guy who gave me a relaxed, but impressive ride in his C6 z51.. I just saw him, still at it, and I think he said he was 84 now--wow! I also had a guy who bitched up a blue streak, hated z06 cars, and basically spoiled a session with his negativity and fear. No amount of reassurance seemed to calm him down. (he's the guy saving on entry fees) On balance though, 99% have been high quality people, generous to a fault, sharing a passion, and sincerely wanting their student to become better. There is a local guy here who is a certified instructor, which makes a lot of sense, so will look into that. From all of the above, I'm determined to try it. Hope this has helped others like Dan who are considering it, it's certainly high quality input.

UrbanKnight

Agree with Jim. I got into it because I love the "ah ha" moment when the light bulb goes off. Been doing it for a few years, and Onlyhad one student who was "challenging". Most are eager to learn. I also know that its vital to keeping our sport alive. My first instructor was excellent, my second instructor, if he would of been my first, would of also been my last. My goal as an instructor is to make sure I do everything I can to be my first instructor. A lot of if is simply finding out what the student wants out of the experience. Some people just want to drive on track, and don't care to advance to anything else, some want to climb the DE ladder. Adjust your style for each, and remember to have fun.

Also of note, Jim was my MSf level 2 instructor. Excellent experience learning more and more.

I enjoy being right seat, and find I learn more about the track than I do in the left. Not scared of it at all. If its my time, its my time.

Dan H.

I agree and have been following the comments and appreciate all the POV's. I was at VIR this past weekend with Chin. One of my favorite parts of their format is drivers can ride with solo drivers. The most fun and engaging part of the weekend for me was having friends ride along and talk about why I did what I did in certain sections of the track. I was also able to ride along in my friends STI in the right seat, observe, and give him some feedback when the run was over (I don't have a communicator yet). While it was fun to chase that elusive 2:12 lap time for me, I had more fun talking about technique and things to try. SCCA DC regions instructor school is a priority for me next year. My problem is motion sickness. I tried the behind the ear patch this past weekend and had no issues riding in my friends car. We'll see how I fare at Shenandoah, I am excited to try.

RapidC84B

argonaut

LOL...the two worst tracks in our area for motion sickness are: VIR Grand Course and Shenandoah. I have a buddy who instructs and he frequently gets quezy at Shenny. But it also depends on your student. The only time I ever got quezy was on the Grand Course with a student who had a lot of trouble being smooth - that infield is a gut killer.

tmtraylor

Jim,

I sure hope that is not the case, but can't blame you if you do....Many rats would be missing you!!!

My thoughts:
I really enjoy instructing, for all the reasons that others have mentioned. I have been scared a few times but find most folks attempt to follow your instructions. The event organizer has a lot to do with the "tone" of the event and I don't instruct with some of the groups that I feel are cavalier (i.e. if there is a lot of Vaping in the paddock... I am out of there ;-) I have been able to ride in or drive cars that are "out of my league". I find that I drive half as many laps during the weekend when I am instructing versus just being a participant. I'm either tired, hanging with my buddies, and etc. and just don't use all the track time available. I have more fun now than before instructing and that's due to the "people" side of the hobby that increases when you instruct.

Good Luck!

Tim