NoradIV

Hello guys,
I am starting to acquire the parts for next track season. My car is a 2002 z06 that I have acquired January 2018. Since then, I have installed a RD radiator with EoC, a DRM transmission/diff cooling kit, swapped valve springs, and installed a racing seat.

My car is still a street-track compromise as I do not have the space/money for a truck and trailer. Plus, lets face it, a C5 is way too nice to only drive it 5-6 times a year on a track. I am 28, so comfort has 0 value; performance and durability are what I care about. I like to think that I will eventually (like, long term thing) get to a full on racecar build, with full, high compression engine working with race fuel, safety net, that kind of thing.

I found a new garage this year, and while talking about my plans and issues I had last year. I told him I already purchased mevotec tie tods, and he explained that street tie rods will need to be replaced each year due to heat. He then went on suggesting "monoball" tie rods. This expression appears to be more related to control arms, but I believe he was talking about this. Having never heard of these, I am now wondering what else I should have that I am not even aware it exists.

Last year, I have already played with tire pressures on the track. I've been told that I was doing it wrong (being alone, I was measuring pressure and temperatures after leaving the track and parking the car (which would take about a minute and a half) instead of right away. This year, I'll ask my GF to assist me for this. I would also like to start playing with alignment (camber and toe) on the track, and next year, with sway bars.

I would love to eventually have a completely adjustable setup.

What I am aware of that I should be replacing/upgrading eventually are (in order) tie rods, sway bars, coilover, hubs, roll bar, control arms and eventually a cage. What other chassis/suspension parts that I should be aware and consider in my build? I have already went through Zenak's post, which is very useful, but a lot of links are dead, and I am not sure what is what.

Thank you for your time!

Nowanker

1 and 2 might be related... loose/worn wheel bearings make noise and allow the disc to wobble back and forth for pad knock-back
3: replace 'em before your next drive! Maybe kill 2 birds with one stone, I replaced mine with a Baer Racing bump steer kit
4 and 5: probably detonation from excess oil in the combustion chamber. A catch can on the PCV system will probably stop #4
6: replace the thermostat. That's what it's there for, to get the engine to and keep it at operating temp. Fix the real problem, don't remove the skirt!
Fix what's below par
Get a track-friendly alignment
Think about replacing the suspension bushings
Get a better seat
Get more track time
roughly in order....

NoradIV

Thank you for your answer, but that is not the information I was looking after. I now realize my post does not reflect what I wanted. I will edit it to make it more clear. I was looking on what suspension/chassis components I should consider in the long term that I might not be aware that exist (I have listed things I know already).

Dane@LGmotorsports

If you are replacing the rear tie rods grab our HD tie rods, they'll relocate the tie rod back a smidge and give you needed clearance for coilovers down the road. I'd do sway bars next, then coilovers then address the control arm bushings. You can use Baer front bump steer kit we've had good experience with those.

fatbillybob

Nowanker is right but I guess you know that stuff. If you tiptoe a build you will end up spending more money and you will do it all again. If you think the goal is W2W then the place to start is understanding yourself and where you might class the car. Who is the big race club in your area? SCCA or NASA? Then pick a reasonable class. Some considerations are will you be comfortable going as fast as a 600hp vette motor can take you? Restricted stock motor in SCCA T2 and we are already at 160mph at Daytona. The bigger the speed the bigger the hit and more damage the more it costs. Another consideration is can you afford or want the "arms race". The more open the rules the more cubic dollars wins the race. In 2014 some teams had tires the rest of us lowly guys could not buy. We only saw the back of those cars. If you add bars they should be matched to the springs for an overall chassis frequency proven to win or empirically derived as a close place to start development. So then you add coils to achieve a different goal and the bars don't work with that. You pay once if you buy the spring and bar package designed to work together or you design a package to work together. I don't believe in your "order". I believe in NoWanker. Hubs 1st they are a safety item and requirement to get other stuff to work right. Then control arms...the stickier the tire the more you want to head toward monoballs. Don't forget camber plates. Then learn to manage the tires and decide how much more suspension you want. And as Nowanker illudes don't forget to make your engine live. The LS6 is not a starvation motor with DOT-R tires. Once on slicks and with wing and splitter the G's go up and a drysump is not a bad idea. Some think mandatory +$5000! Add the extra 1qt of oil. The springs you have done.

Don't discount safety gear. The longer you race your number will come up. It is just the reality of the sport. I have written off 2 chassis so far neither my fault. Every race there are about 300+ guys. There is always at least 1 wreck. Your chances 1/300+ on any given weekend. Can't afford that don't play the game.

One final tip: Get into the sport deep before you are married. It is a lot harder for wife to say,"No." It is also a lot easier to buy new race parts since you have always done it.

NoradIV

Really, this has been one of the hard parts in this. I have no idea where I want to endup, but I am certain I will never reach sponsorship and I am unlikely to have more money than a middle class worker with no children. That also mean no mechanical team to help me.


No idea, but we are all poor in quebec, and racing is a very, very niche thing where we mostly run our crap cars. My C5 is usually in the top cars in events.

That is fair, and exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. So I should wait and pile money for a complete suspension kit?

Ok for hubs and camber plates. Not sure how to do/know about the rest.


Engine are expensive. That has been my top priority since day one.

Will keep that in mind. Slicks is not on my checklist for now, as I am not in any competition, but once I reach that point, I will likely pull the motor out of the car, come here and ask for advice. Extra quart is already done, and is an item on my checklist before every event.

I know, dying or being paralyzed is not something I am interested in. However, I want to be sure "racing" is not just a temporary thing before going too much into this. I am just at the step of track days so far. I have done perhaps 25 hours of track time last summer (something like 75 sessions), and so far I love it.

Hahaha, I get that one. I haven't been too much into racing in the past, but I have always had a fun car (previous car was a 2nd gen firebird). Even if I quit racing and sell the C5, I would aim for something like a 70 Nova. Also, she's a horse girl, so she gets it.

fatbillybob

[QUOTE=NoradIV;1598903766]Really, this has been one of the hard parts in this. I have no idea where I want to endup, but I am certain I will never reach sponsorship and I am unlikely to have more money than a middle class worker with no children. That also mean no mechanical team to help me.

Well in C5 world there is SpecCorvette started in California growing in the US. Those cars can be built for $20k car included! They are as fast as the old pre-2012 SCCA T1 cars. Once you get to SCCA GT2 doing a LS3 motorswap and drysump you are +12k or so and blowing up the motor will cost you $8k.



That is fair, and exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. So I should wait and pile money for a complete suspension kit?

Well try and think about where you might put the car and that will determine what you do. If you go SpecCorvette they have a suspension kit. If you run SCCA T2 there is the original pre-2012 GMPP T1 suspension. If you go GT2 let the arms race begin. If you honestly will only do a few HPDE's per year then do whatever you want.



Ok for hubs and camber plates. Not sure how to do/know about the rest.

Well there are guys like van steel who will put in Delrin bushings or Monoballs into your a arms. Then you just bolt the arms back on...simple

, I will likely pull the motor out of the car, come here and ask for advice.

Have a good reason to do that. Engine builder promise more than they can deliver. I could do a whole thread on my engine woes.

NoradIV

Well, I guess I am doing this the other way around. I should begin by knowing what class I want to run it, then build for that.

I've gone through an engine myself. In a couple years, I am pretty certain my engine will need a refresh after going to the track as much as it did. While I am there, I may do upgrades.

fatbillybob

yes that is your dad talking...reality... We seem to like reinventing the wheel. When you look back at your life in 30 years the money you wasted could have bought a Ferrari.

NoradIV

Even if I could affoard a Ferrari, I wouldn't buy one.

However, I understand what you mean.

NoradIV

Ok, so, I am re-thinking about this, and the problem I have is that I originally started this thread because I have to replace my tie rods. I don't want to go through the trouble of replacing these every year due to heat. Can I still go with something like LG Motorsports bump steer kit? Or stick with factory tie rods?

Nowanker

Or several....
In fact, I think I'm working on another one right now!

AND0

You don't necessarily have to replace tie rods every year. If you run very hard your brakes will get very hot, that heat can actually melt the rubber covers on the tie rod ends, requiring replacement. You may not run the brakes that hot, you can get air ducting backing plates that shield the tie rods from heat, you can get high temperature boots, or you can get a monoball/heim joint/pillow ball/rod end style tie rod. Lots of solutions.

BUT you will wind up doing WAY WAY more maintenance and repairs on your car than just replacing tie rods once a year. So if the thought of that kind of simple fix is daunting, you may need to step back and reevaluate the kind of time you can spend on this.
Lots of great advice here on this site, but you will need to develop your knowledge level to the point where not only do you know the correct question to ask, but what some of the answers might be.
Fast cars are expensive. Going slow is cheap and way easier to learn. Can you afford a blown engine? an off into the tire wall? What do you do if you have a mechanical failure and you can't drive home?

NoradIV

The tracks available here are mostly small technical tracks. Not a lot of speed leading to not a lot of air. My RD radiator is barely able to cool down my engine because of that.

Can I just face one issue at a time? I understand what you guys say, but I can't learn from forums and videos. I need to have first hand experience at some point. Gotta learn to walk before running. Last summer, the most complicated job I have ever done was changing drum brakes. This year, I have upgraded my radiator, installed the DRM transmission/diff cooling kit (I am still buthurt on the fact that they didn't feel like including brackets, which took at least 5 hours to make with a hammer, metal screws, plyers, markers and a vise. The whole job took 20 hours because I didn't know what I was doing and I had to figure out how to do this. This was done on top of my day job. If that isn't commitment, I don't know what it is.) drained and filled diff/transmission 3 times, fixed various electrical issues and installed my racing seat. I've never done any of this, so that also included researching the right parts, ordering them from the states, buying the missing stuff and install them with no idea of what problem I will have during the installation. It may not sound like much, but when you've got about 8 inch of clearance and you are trying to push fluids in the transmission at arms length, with goddamn transmission fluid pissing everywhere while you try to pump and hold at the same time because you are alone and the only tools you have are harbor freight hand tools, a simple fluid change takes 2 hours.

It feels like you just want to discourage me from keeping doing this. At some point, I had 3 jobs to pay for my car. I've changed jobs couple times to increase my income to a point where I believe I can start to do some track days and do some lapping. I am not doing any competition right now, and I doubt I will be able to in the next 5 years. Doesn't mean I cannot start learning to drive a car at the limit on the track on lapping monday nights and lapping days. Hell, I've gone to every single monday I could attend last summer, plus every single track day that was shown in my club. That also mean every sunday including race prep; pull all tires, inspect brakes and steel lines, check all fluids and bleed. I must have spent something like ~25 ish hours of seat time in a single season last summer. The average joe in my area think its a lot. I've learned a hell of a lot on the track, but I have still a whole lot to go.

When you dont know what you dont know, and you have people coming online like "well, if you can't affoard 160$ on tie rods, find some other hobby". I can affoard 80$ tie rods. Its the tie rods, the 5 bottles of 100$ castrol srf, the two sets of 1000$ brake pads, the 3x 2000$ tire set, the fuel, the transmission/diff oil changes twice a year, and the everything that I don't know about yet that add up to being a lot of money. I have already found out that changing camber will reduce my tire wear, great! Let's do that, that will free up 4000$ that I can put somewhere else.

I just bought a house 2 years ago as a cost cutting measure (this is not even a joke) so I could build a garage and work on my car myself since it was the single most expensive thing I had. My GF is moving to my place, which means we will split house payment, and in 5 years my income should be higher than what it is right now. Went from 38k to 52k in 3 years, and I hope it will continue toward that direction. In the meantime, I'll stick to what I can affoard. Perhaps I should insist on the fact that all I am doing right now is simply lapping, and I am trying to increase the durability of everything so I can put my money on upgrades instead of consummables. I would love to end up with a full on racecar, but all I can do for now is to dream and work for it.

Why the hell do you think I went for a C5? I am not especially fan of the corvettes. All I wanted was a RWD V8 manual combo. The C5 happened to be the best performance/dollar available.

When I bring friends to the range, I don't tell them "well, you should know this even if you never learned about it", I understand they don't know anything about this, and either spoon feed them the information (which I am not asking for, by the way), or refer them to a ressource where they can learn from by themselves. Unfortunately, I haven't found any guide that goes through everything I need to know aside of Zenak's post, which is useful, but quite messy.

So, please, I'd appreciate that people stop talking down to me, and instead direct me toward ressources I can learn from. I think this previous comment I made is a pretty good indication that I am willing to listen if given good enough arguments.

I don't know if I am overreacting, but if I am, sorry about that; I've had a **** day.

TrackAire

NoradIV,

You're not really having a **** day....you know what a **** day is? Having a Corvette C5 as a daily driver and blowing the motor on a $52k salary. That is a **** day and a reality check.

I don't know if your car is your daily or not. It sounds like you've done a lot of research already......you've done a bunch of track time. You're on a budget so why don't you keep doing what you're doing and fix stuff that is weak or causes you issues on the track. Suspension-wise, an aggressive alignment, good shocks and making sure your parts (hubs, ball joints, a-arm bushings, tie rods) are all in good mechanical order. If you're fast there are not a lot of cars that can keep up with a proper driver in a decent C5. Do not run super sticky tires as this only puts you further into the rabbit hole and causes you to have to modify things to keep up with the tires. Don't run super wide tires, run some of the 275-ish wide Federals square that are literally like $500.00 for a set of four. You're not racing wheel to wheel, so who cares if you are 2 seconds slower than the guy on uber expensive R-compounds? Don't modify the motor for more power other than for reliability and cooling. Crack the motor open and things get very expensive very quickly and unfortunately, reliability may go down further increasing your costs and limiting your track time.

I think you're doing everything ok.....you've got a good job, you've got a house, you're paying your bills, doing track days and most importantly learning to drive and work on your car. Don't over think it....if it ain't broke, don't fix it. When it does break, repair it or upgrade it to avoid the issue in the future.

Good luck.

fatbillybob

That is very sound advice.

NoradIV

Alright, thank you for the tires, and you are right, I am maybe overthinking it.

That is why I am asking these questions. Nothing more frustrating than buying a "permanent" solution that you end up tossing out because you didn't know it would interfere with another upgrade. Like, buying 1600$ monoball tie rods, then realize 2 years later that they interfere with your new coilover and having to toss em out and re-buy again.

So, I can just replace tie rods that will melt every year because of the size of local tracks and pile up for a complete kit that has all these problems sorted out, or plan ahead and upgrade one part at a time. I am trying to do the later.

TrackAire

Welcome to the world of modifications......many claim "bolt on" and the reality they aren't. Or they bolt on but don't play well with other mods (tie rod to coil over clearance for example). I can promise you this, you will be making mistakes and doing some things two or three times until it gets figured out. The mistake may not even be your fault but it will waste time and money. There is no way to avoid this so do as you say and learn as much about an upgrade or "fix" as possible but you may find that it just didn't work out as you thought. You just have to roll with the punches and minimize the hit when they come. There is no way to make a "perfect" car the first time out.

Someday you might decide to build a house from the ground up. You'll spend years figuring out what you want and how to build it. Yet after you start, you may change floorplans or find issues along the way that will cost you way more than you had ever budgeted for in both money and time. You take the word of "experts" yet it ends up costing you money. Cars are very much the same way.

I do think something to look at right now is your cooling issue. It really isn't going to matter if your track is smaller or higher speed, once over 40-ish miles per hour the fans aren't doing crap and it is all air flow. I would double check your radiator and AC condenser to make sure they are clean. It takes a lot of work to clean them correctly, but I am shocked how much little grit type sand fills in the fins with literally only 1000 miles of track time. The first time I cleaned my cooling stack, I removed feathers, fuzzballs, dirt, sand, fine sediment type dust and a smashed plumb with pit that had been mummified. So I thought my stack would still be pristine yet after checking out my car after last months track day I need to clean it again. The good thing is this is a "free" mod only needing your time and elbow grease to clean it. It will make a difference in cooling regardless of the track or speed of the track. There are a lot of threads on how to clean the cooling stack....if the cooling stack is clean you should be able to run hard at temps under 80 degrees without the car getting into the "danger" temp range.

fatbillybob

Tie rod ends...don’t sweat it. Heat will only cook the boots if you get it hot enough. The tie rods will work fine just dirt dust can get in with no boots. Big deal. This is a track used car. Hubs, tie rod ends, A arms, arm bushings etc are all consumables. If you are on track long enough you are going to bend or get bent a rear tie rod arm. Those are also consumable. They are 60 bucks new. I just bought one. When the time comes you need more clearance for coils then buy the offset a arm fix then. There is nothing you only buy once. We racers replace stock calipers annually until we were allowed an aftermarket fix. We wore out pads in a weekend and cracked rotor on the third track day. This sport isn’t cheap. If you get the racing bug you will learn that the car is the cheapest part.

NoradIV

The last car I tried to build was my 81 Trans Am. Didn't do enough research and ended with a 383 with a huge cam and garbage heads that ended up making butt-meter 275hp. I dumped about 15k to this "mechanic" and since then I decided to do as much research as I could. I guess you are right and going to the other extreme is pointless.

I don't mean to argue there, but say what you want, oil temp barely reach 110 degree C at Mosport, and I have to run with a cardboard that covers 1/3 of the radiator on the street because if I don't, I end up with a CEL on cooler days. Plus, I've read a couple comments here saying that the Ron Davis radiator is meant to run at high speed, so they have tightly packed fins that have a hard time flowing at slow speed. At my smaller track here, I reach 131 degree on the oil.

The radiator was brand new. I am pretty certain it didn't have anything in there, but it was still running hot on the small track here. I'll inspect the condenser then I get the car out of the snow in spring.

Alright, my current tie rods are very loose, I assumed I cooked them. Maybe they are just 16 years old and its where the problem comes from.