Engine pad, Opinions?
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: Portland Oregon
Engine pad, Opinions?
I'm going to look at this car and asked for a pic of the engine pad. This is advertised as a "Matching Numbers" '67 big block car.
I'm a novice at this but I think I see at least 2 possible problems with the originality of this "Match". I realize the photo is not the best to work with, but it's all I have until I fly out to inspect the car next week. The 7XXX do match the vin plate, but they don't seem to be lined up left to right, and it looks to me that there is a step down on the right half of the pad. As if it had been ground down to eradicate original vin and allow for a restamp.
Opinions?
I'm new to the board, and also how sophisticated the "Restorers" have become since I owned my last piece of glass. I last had a '63 coupe for about 10 years in the '70's & '80's but then you mostly had to worry about repo ignition shielding and correct bolt plating.
I'm a novice at this but I think I see at least 2 possible problems with the originality of this "Match". I realize the photo is not the best to work with, but it's all I have until I fly out to inspect the car next week. The 7XXX do match the vin plate, but they don't seem to be lined up left to right, and it looks to me that there is a step down on the right half of the pad. As if it had been ground down to eradicate original vin and allow for a restamp.
Opinions?
I'm new to the board, and also how sophisticated the "Restorers" have become since I owned my last piece of glass. I last had a '63 coupe for about 10 years in the '70's & '80's but then you mostly had to worry about repo ignition shielding and correct bolt plating.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,397
Likes: 35
Not a pad expert, but:
-with the value of BB today I would think that one would be very careful about painting the pad and subsequently wiping it off
- a good portion of the BB cars out there are not true BB cars - try to get as many photos as you can and post them here (pad, casting date, casting number)
- otherwise you trip may be a waste of your time
-with the value of BB today I would think that one would be very careful about painting the pad and subsequently wiping it off
- a good portion of the BB cars out there are not true BB cars - try to get as many photos as you can and post them here (pad, casting date, casting number)
- otherwise you trip may be a waste of your time
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 87
From: Northern MN
St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15-'16-'17
Not sure I can post my photo of my pad. You can try my corvette photos to see if it is there. My pad looks almost identical to the one you posted. The engine code is located next to the plug in the head and has the same look as mine. The serial number reference is located in the same area. I am not so sure that I would question the scaping of paint from the pad. I painted my engine back in the early 80's never thinking that it would make a difference. I just didn't tape it off. If you can get a close up of the pad, the best way to see if it is original is the brooch marks from the factory.
Hope this helps,
Steve
Hope this helps,
Steve
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: Portland Oregon
Pad, etc.
Steve,
If you can post your pic, that might help. If you can't, you can email it to me perhaps?
From what I've heard so far, even dealers are more than willing to pass off restamps as original. I'd like to have some ammunition to challenge their "Expertise" if I claim the motor is not the original block. I expect this to decline into
"I've been in this business 50 years and I know an original number when I see one, There's nothing wrong with this car and that's the way they made them back then".
I'd love for it to be the right block, but I gotta be sure. That's why I'm not buying it without a pesonal inspection. I need the Forum's opinion and advice to know what to look for, and how to look at it.
If you can post your pic, that might help. If you can't, you can email it to me perhaps?
From what I've heard so far, even dealers are more than willing to pass off restamps as original. I'd like to have some ammunition to challenge their "Expertise" if I claim the motor is not the original block. I expect this to decline into
"I've been in this business 50 years and I know an original number when I see one, There's nothing wrong with this car and that's the way they made them back then".
I'd love for it to be the right block, but I gotta be sure. That's why I'm not buying it without a pesonal inspection. I need the Forum's opinion and advice to know what to look for, and how to look at it.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 38,897
Likes: 1,915
From: Washington Michigan
Can't tell with the tiny photo. Pad photos aren't helpful unless they're close-up, very high resolution, and the pad is absolutely free of any paint and clean; a painted pad always raises a red flag for me. 
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 205
Likes: 1
From: West Bend WI
If it is a big block, there are many other tell tail signs that need to be correct. Search this forum and you will find about 10 items that need to be present to make it a BB. I am familiar w/ 66s which may or may not share the same as the 67s but here are a couple off the top of my head
- red line 6500
- half shaft caps like an engine main cap versus a typical stamped steel cap used on a drive shaft
- sway bar, in 66 there was two different diameters for BB, all had rear sway bars even though they look pretty wimping in diameter
- throttle bracket, unique to a BB
- Frame; large indentation for the harmonic balancer
- Rear end codes, different from that of a small block
- transistor ignition, look for the box or if missing, the three holes behind the drivers side headlight.
- battery location
- hood support latch location.
SAS
- red line 6500
- half shaft caps like an engine main cap versus a typical stamped steel cap used on a drive shaft
- sway bar, in 66 there was two different diameters for BB, all had rear sway bars even though they look pretty wimping in diameter
- throttle bracket, unique to a BB
- Frame; large indentation for the harmonic balancer
- Rear end codes, different from that of a small block
- transistor ignition, look for the box or if missing, the three holes behind the drivers side headlight.
- battery location
- hood support latch location.
SAS
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Safety Car
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,142
Likes: 703
draver, I blew your picture up a bit. This might help. I see what you mean about the "step down". That ain't right.
.
.
Also, the stamp on the left looks like it starts with LOL. Is that Lots of Laughs, or Laugh Out Loud ?....................(just kidding)
.
.
Also, the stamp on the left looks like it starts with LOL. Is that Lots of Laughs, or Laugh Out Loud ?....................(just kidding)
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 87
From: Northern MN
St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15-'16-'17
"draver, I blew your picture up a bit. This might help. I see what you mean about the "step down". That ain't right."
###########################
If you are saying that the step down is the difference between the engine designation number/letter and the serial number positioning, then you are incorrect in saying that it isn't right. Grey Ghost blew up the photo of my engine pad and you can see that the step down is correct. Mine is the original block and numbers. You can see the brooch marks from the factory and when I pulled the engine in 1979 I had it rebuilt without having to deck the block. If that wasn't what you were referring to, then I am stumped as to what you are looking at on his pad and numbers.
Steve
###########################
If you are saying that the step down is the difference between the engine designation number/letter and the serial number positioning, then you are incorrect in saying that it isn't right. Grey Ghost blew up the photo of my engine pad and you can see that the step down is correct. Mine is the original block and numbers. You can see the brooch marks from the factory and when I pulled the engine in 1979 I had it rebuilt without having to deck the block. If that wasn't what you were referring to, then I am stumped as to what you are looking at on his pad and numbers.
Steve
Tech Contributor
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15,570
Likes: 116
From: Conroe Texas
Originally Posted by 66BlkBB
...If that wasn't what you were referring to, then I am stumped as to what you are looking at on his pad and numbers..
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: Portland Oregon
Step Down
Buns,
Good job on the photo. I realize it may be an optical illusion, but it sure looks like there is a step to me. I hope the "LOL" is really T0131IL but who knows. At least that would seem to be about right for the date range of the serial number. But then again, it could just be an overstamp poorly done.
I already bought my ticket so I'll make the trip anyway, but I'm a lot less likely to give the car serious consideration if it is not a level pad. It's just that it seems so obvious that makes you wonder why they would think this would fly?
What are the set in stone, big block only, things that will determine if this car began as a BB? Will the Differential have a different number series, or any other item that never would have been downgraded from a BB to a small block part?
Good job on the photo. I realize it may be an optical illusion, but it sure looks like there is a step to me. I hope the "LOL" is really T0131IL but who knows. At least that would seem to be about right for the date range of the serial number. But then again, it could just be an overstamp poorly done.
I already bought my ticket so I'll make the trip anyway, but I'm a lot less likely to give the car serious consideration if it is not a level pad. It's just that it seems so obvious that makes you wonder why they would think this would fly?
What are the set in stone, big block only, things that will determine if this car began as a BB? Will the Differential have a different number series, or any other item that never would have been downgraded from a BB to a small block part?
Last edited by draver; Jul 29, 2006 at 07:50 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 38,897
Likes: 1,915
From: Washington Michigan
Originally Posted by nvr-enuf
If it is a big block, there are many other tell tail signs that need to be correct. Search this forum and you will find about 10 items that need to be present to make it a BB. I am familiar w/ 66s which may or may not share the same as the 67s but here are a couple off the top of my head
- red line 6500
- half shaft caps like an engine main cap versus a typical stamped steel cap used on a drive shaft
- sway bar, in 66 there was two different diameters for BB, all had rear sway bars even though they look pretty wimping in diameter
- throttle bracket, unique to a BB
- Frame; large indentation for the harmonic balancer
- Rear end codes, different from that of a small block
- transistor ignition, look for the box or if missing, the three holes behind the drivers side headlight.
- battery location
- hood support latch location.
SAS
- red line 6500
- half shaft caps like an engine main cap versus a typical stamped steel cap used on a drive shaft
- sway bar, in 66 there was two different diameters for BB, all had rear sway bars even though they look pretty wimping in diameter
- throttle bracket, unique to a BB
- Frame; large indentation for the harmonic balancer
- Rear end codes, different from that of a small block
- transistor ignition, look for the box or if missing, the three holes behind the drivers side headlight.
- battery location
- hood support latch location.
SAS
An L-71 should have an 80# oil pressure gauge - all other '67 engines had a 60# gauge.
Front stabilizer bar should be 7/8" diameter vs. 3/4" for a small-block (F-41 was 15/16", but was only available with the L-71).
All '65-'67 frames had the indentation for BB pulley clearance.
Transistor ignition was only standard on the L-71; it was an option on the L-36/L-68.
Battery location on a '66-'67 BB was the same as the small-block, on the passenger side; only A/C cars had it on the driver's side.
If it's an A.O. Smith body ("A" prefix on the body number on the trim tag), it wasn't born as a big-block.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: Portland Oregon
Various Details
As you might imagine, the opinions that seem to be considered "Facts" by posters on this and other websites has contributed to my confusion.
A few pointers if you have the facts:
Where on the differential and WHAT on the differential should I be looking for? It seems pretty unlikely to me that someone would install a small block diff. on a BB chassis if the factory thought there should be a difference.
Any other BB only signs to look for on the undercarriage?
I've ordered the NCRS judging manual for 1967, but doubt that it will arrive in time for my trip.
A few pointers if you have the facts:
Where on the differential and WHAT on the differential should I be looking for? It seems pretty unlikely to me that someone would install a small block diff. on a BB chassis if the factory thought there should be a difference.
Any other BB only signs to look for on the undercarriage?
I've ordered the NCRS judging manual for 1967, but doubt that it will arrive in time for my trip.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 38,897
Likes: 1,915
From: Washington Michigan
Originally Posted by draver
As you might imagine, the opinions that seem to be considered "Facts" by posters on this and other websites has contributed to my confusion.
A few pointers if you have the facts:
Where on the differential and WHAT on the differential should I be looking for? It seems pretty unlikely to me that someone would install a small block diff. on a BB chassis if the factory thought there should be a difference.
Any other BB only signs to look for on the undercarriage?
I've ordered the NCRS judging manual for 1967, but doubt that it will arrive in time for my trip.
A few pointers if you have the facts:
Where on the differential and WHAT on the differential should I be looking for? It seems pretty unlikely to me that someone would install a small block diff. on a BB chassis if the factory thought there should be a difference.
Any other BB only signs to look for on the undercarriage?
I've ordered the NCRS judging manual for 1967, but doubt that it will arrive in time for my trip.
The ratio code and assembly date are stamped into the bottom flange of the diff, visible between the spring retaining plate and the camber strut bracket; the first two characters are the ratio code, and these are the big-block diff codes (photo below shows where to look):
AT = 3.08
AU = 3.36
AZ = 3.55
FA = 3.70
"It seems pretty unlikely to me that someone would install a small block diff. on a BB chassis if the factory thought there should be a difference."
That's not the issue - the issue is that many original small-block cars that are converted to big-block engines still have the small-block differential in place, and many don't bother to install the rear stabilizer bar either, which ALL BB's had, and NO SB's had.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 87
From: Northern MN
St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15-'16-'17
Originally Posted by 62Jeff
Step down - the engine pad in the photo appears not to be flat, but instead lower where the serial number is than where the assembly data is- As if a serial number was ground off and a new serial number stamped in its place.
You may be right but I think that it is an optical illusion from the gloss paint and the ground boss area where the plug is in the head. The ridge on the boss seems to project itself down onto the flat area due to the paint. I don't know how you would grind that area and not have it look odd when the head was bolted to the block. You would have to stop right at the head otherwise the head gasket would leak and then that part would definitely be lower and look odd. I am not saying that this is original, it may be a restamp. Some of these guys are really resourceful and with the money BB's bring now it is possible for them to rework about anything. I am just not seeing what you guys are.
Steve
Last edited by 66BlkBB; Jul 30, 2006 at 08:12 AM.
Tech Contributor
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15,570
Likes: 116
From: Conroe Texas
Originally Posted by 66BlkBB
You may be right but I think that it is an optical illusion from the gloss paint and the ground boss area where the plug is in the head.
