I did not want to hijack the other threads on specific documentation being discussed on this forum. However I did want to comment on what I have learned over the past years concerning any documents possessed by any past, present and future GM employee: GM has decided that any such documentation is 'owned' by GM and should be placed in the possession of the 'Heritage Collection'. This includes any of Duntovs archives still in the possession of Elfie.

A few years ago as I reviewed John Ns documentation I thought 'how in the world did he come up with this stuff?' There are copies of documents that I never thought would have survived When I asked he said 'once people saw just how thorough and carefully he was restoring the cars things just appeared'. When I pressed he just said 'if I told you I would have to shoot you.' I think this applies to the 66 car too. If you are doing a car and are being faithful to the cause people will help where they can.

I often ask those with said documentation 'what about the NCM?' GMs official position on the NCM is they will never give title to any historical item since the NCM is a separate entity and can sell anything they establish ownership of. Items can be loaned if requested but I get the impression it is a formal process. The other problem is the NCM will not accept documentation just because you want to give it to them. In some cases it is because of the above, in some cases it is because they do not have the expertise to recognize the value of the items being offered, and in some cases they just do not have the staff and space to handle it.

What is really sad is that getting access to said information has to depend on someone willing to share the documentation on the side. One of the most important topics discussed by those of us involved in the creation of the NCM was an entity that this documentation could be released to where others could have access to the information to answer questions like being discussed on the other threads.

Several years ago I tried to do some research on ZR1 production in 87,88,89. I was provided on the qt a vin assignment listing so I knew the production vin of ZR1s built as 88s. Since I had the build sheet for my car I asked if I could see the sheets for the other 24 cars, sure for $30 a pop! Build sheets are a source of revenue so no money no access. When I asked about reviewing any documentation I was told that since the NCM does not have a real library staff or function there is no way anyone can have access to any documentation deposited with them. This attitude has stopped several people from placing documentation at the NCM, if they will not allow access why donate it to the NCM. What is really interesting is Forums and web sites are slowly solving this problem and that is why threads like 66 Gulf Oil car and the previous one on SR2 are so important.

Two incidents that underline the current GM gorilla state:

In April 05 some LT 5 Lotus documentation appeared on ebay, since it involved build information I jumped on it, it went 3 of the five days and the seller was called by GM lawyers and told the stuff was proprietary and he had no right to sell it and where did it come from? Bought at a garage sale, doesn't matter it’s ours,GM had ebay terminate the auction and came got the stuff. Who alerted GM? You guessed it the NCM. The seller has a signed letter from GM stating the items seized would go to the NCM, bet that does not happen either.

About a month ago I was told of an 89 ZR1 pilot car s/n 4 with 243 miles on the clock that had been used by a state run school for training & certifying GM technicians on ZR1s. It had been unused for 10 years and they wanted to donate it to a Museum. I was on the phone, would the NCM take it, yes ok will the school donate it, yes; call the NCM again and get a welllll call this number at GM there is a problem. Call and guess what? The school has only 2 choices, destroy it or return it to GM, once it is officially part of the Heritage fleet if the NCM asked they could probably borrow it but have the school call us we will send a truck for it.

So you guys out there with documentation and items have reason to be careful. Off my soapbox and thanks to those working to unearth the history of the cars we all enjoy.

Tyler

 

I was involved on many occasions in donating Pilot cars to vocational schools for their use in auto mechanic training programs, both from GM and Chrysler; those "donated" cars are ON LOAN to those educational institutions, and there are only two permitted dispositions when they get to the point where they are no longer of use - they can be scrapped under supervision of the donor, or returned to the donor.

 

I remember seeing the "cut-away" Corvette coupe that was found at a school in South Africa (I think) at Corvette Carlisle. It belongs to a private individual now yet it was dontated to a school for training purposes. Why wasn't that display reclaimed by GM?

 

Good post Tyler.. well spoken..
The hobby is supposed to be about fun... and part of that fun is
being able to learn everything we'd like about our cars..
I often have as much fun turning pages on stories about cars as
I do turning wrenches or turning steering wheels.

Libraries store information for the expansion of knowledge... not
the production of profit. Your point and complaint is dead on.
I hope that GM and the NCM understand that the value of
the documents is their USE..... not their possession.

You build the value of your brand by making ownership a joy..
not by making any part of it difficult... even with older cars.

 

Very interesting! I'd love to see what happens when GM (or a representative) comes to my front door, says "It's mine, give it to me"!
The next thing you know, they'll be wanting to take posession of all the restored classic Chevys, Vettes, GTOs, SS396s, Z28s, etc, etc, etc. Let'm try!!!!!!!!!!

 

The automotive department of the community college I taught at for 10 years was an official GM training center (along with Ford also), and they were regularly given cars, including Corvettes. It was the same understanding. It had to be either destroyed or given back. One interesting car they had, was a Beretta convertible. It was an experimental car that never went into production. So yes, some interesting cars were given to tech schools.

 

Either they don't know about it or don't care about it; legally, it still belongs to GM, and they could claim it if they wanted it.

 

Karl Ludvigsen writes some interesting early Corvette articles in Corvette Magazine with great pictures that look like they are from GM. I always wonder how he gets the info and pictures and how much he has. The article subtitles read "Karl Ludvigsen and the Ludvigsen Library looks at the......"

 

I saw it at the NCRS Orlando show around 1999 or 2000 ? That thing is AWESOME ! I'd rather have it than a running car.

 

I guess they'll be wanting it back now, someone tell Al Wiseman not to answer the door::



http://www.corvettemagazine.com/2000...y/cutawyp1.asp

"From there, the history of the Cutaway Corvette becomes quite muddy. Apparently, with its Motorama duty done, the display was stored for a period of time, then donated to a college in Africa for use at its engineering school. At some point, the car was again placed in storage, where it languished for some 30 years until the school rediscovered the one-of-a-kind coupe and put it up for sale. Initially purchased and returned to the United States by Johnnie Van Niekerk, the Corvette was later obtained by collector Al Wiseman, owner of Classic Corvettes and Collectibles in Tarpon Springs, Florida.
Wiseman was gracious enough to transport the Cutaway Corvette to Illinois for the Bloomington Gold Corvette Show, where the vintage exhibit was one of the highlights of the event. Although the original electric motor had to be replaced just prior to Bloomington, Wiseman’s crew was able to get the display in working order for the show, where it was difficult to even get a photo of the car because of all the people crowded around it at all times."

now, why they got crazy with the red-orange paint is anybody's guess, they even laid it all over the fuelie unit and the alternator:

 

Is this the type of documentation that they are going to try to seize..
Kevin Mackay sent me this pic by email this morning..

 

no, I don't think GM is looking to seize pages from our Assembly Instruction Manuals.

clarification: I don't own an AIM for the 66 M.Y., but understand there are more than a few references to the L88 RPO in it; I assume but have no way of confirming that this is a page from the 66 AIM.

 

Thats it !!! One of THE coolest things, you will ever see. Wish it was in the museum for more people to see.

 

I need to correct an item in my earlier post. I did not know until tonite that GM had in fact paid Elfie for the items Zora had in the house. She can keep all GM related items in the house until her death, at that time the Heritage Museum will take posession of said items. This was arranged some years ago through a lawyer as a way to help her meet expenses during her lifetime. Sorry.

Tyler

 

We thought it appropriate to respond to the comments made concerning the National Corvette Museum.

If GM has an "official position" concerning documentation and the NCM then it has never been shared with the NCM. The LT-5 documentation that Mercury Marine donated to the NCM is "offically" the NCM's. However at the request of GM, we have not made copies available to ZR-1 owners. We believe in time this will be changed.

If any Corvette enthusiasts has followed the Museum since it opened in 1994, they know that bridges were burned with Corvette owners, Corvette Clubs, GM, Corvette Plant and the Bowling Green Kentucky community. Rebuilding those bridges was a major focus for 1997 along with getting a waiver on our default on our loans. Today we feel that we have good relationships and strategic partnerships with all of the above.

The NCM has no problem in accepting documentation related to the Corvette and at this time we have several rooms full in various locations. Yes, we do check things out as any museum should do some due diligence. I am not aware of any documentation that we have turned down. Quite honestly, we are receiving materials for our library/archives at a faster pace than ever. There are times when we may not know the value of an item, but we do have many contacts with Corvette owners/enthusiasts that have expertise in a particular area and we develop new ones each day. In addition, let me add that we have sufficient staff and space to handle all donations that anyone is considering to the NCM and as we said earlier we are getting some weekly and sometimes daily.

From folks that I have visited with concerning the early years of the planning and creation of the NCM, was indeed for an entity that Corvette related documentation could be certrally located and available for enthusiasts to use for research. However, there was never an area completed to house the library/archives and practically no funds were allocated for a library/archives. In January 1997 at an event that coincided with the unveiling of the C5, I was asked by an enthusiasts when would the library/archives be completed. My response was that I did not plan to spend any time thinking about the library/archives as the crucial issues were (1) negotiating with the banks on a waiver of the loan default ......... this was finalized on March 27, 1997) and (2) the $12 million in debt we had and a monthly mortgage payment of $110,000 that we were unable to make.

As we were financially able to make some enhancements to the library/archives, we have done so. We made sufficient enhancements that the Corvette Plant donated the "build sheets" going back to 1981. We have continued to purchase filing cabinets to file and store the build sheets. Betty Hardison spends almost all of her time focusing on the library/archives. At times Chad Carter and Vince Perriello provide some assistance. For the last 4-5 years, we have stayed current with documenting and cataloguing all current donations. We have made and continue to make strides in doing the same for donations made in prior years.

The main reason for doing an addition to the NCM is to have a library/archives with sufficient space to have all of the materials in one location and properly filed so they are indeed a resource for anyone wanting to do research. At this time, we do not have sufficient space, sufficient resources or sufficient staff for anyone to do research. In addition, our materials are stored in 5 different areas. Our internal staff built a second floor in the area many refer to as the library/archives as additional space was needed.

We understand that the library/archives is very important to many Corvette enthusiasts. As funds permit the building addition will become a reality. As funds permit sufficient equipment will be purchased to permit all the information possible to be electronically captured and made available to Corvette enthusiasts.

With regard to the April 2005 LT5 Lotus documentation that GM took from eBay, that was turned over to the NCM and is properly stored in our library/archives. The reason we informed GM was that if the items were legitimate, then we had someone who planned to buy them and donate them to the NCM.

With regard to the 89 ZR-1 pilot car, several others on the Forum have responded to exactly how it works when GM donates a car to a school. We had encountered that on two other occasions.

Please permit me to remind you that the NCM is a non-profit foundation that is owned/controlled by its members. We have 15 board members and anytime you have questions concerning the governance of the NCM, please feel free to contact any of them. The NCRS and NCCC have representatives on the board. Any time you have a question concerning the operations of the Museum, please feel free to contact any member of our management team, including me. I answer all my phone calls and emails the same day.

We are your Museum and our vision has not changed since it was documented in 1989 or early 90's. If there are issues you want changed, please share them with us. We also have an annual membership meeting as part of our Labor Day Weekend Corvette Celebration. At that meeting, members are asked to make any comments or voice any concerns. Several have and it does impact things we do and decisions we make for the future. We cannot do many things as fast as some folks would like and the main issue is lack of money. Our debt is $2.7 million and our monthly mortgage payment is $38,000. We are not where we want to be..........but thanks to Corvette enthusiasts like the members of the Corvette Forum we are not where we were in December 1996.

Please let me know any thoughts you have for improving your NCM and thanks for letting me serve as your steward.

When we were asked about when would this happen