Recently, I've seen cars for sale with 'Guaranteed Original Engines'. My question is how can you tell for sure? Can you somehow measure the block to see if it's ever been decked? What are the specs for this? Where do they exist? Thanks, I'm new here.

 

From what I have learned, there is no guarantee unless you have documentation. What does Original Engine mean? That it is a correct motor? Or, Numbers Matching Documented motor? Big difference if you have the documentation.

 

 

How does documentation prove an engine is original?

Yes, there are deck height measurments for the various blocks. AFAIK, only County Corvettes "guarantees" originality in some of their cars and Jim Jordan has seen enough cars to know and honest enough to be truthful about it.

Just my $.02

 

Yes, you can measure it off the crank centerline.

 

There are no guarantees. Too much money involved.

I recently heard that you can build the pad back up and "broach" it till it is the right height.

 

So now we have become so skeptical that we won't even believe that any cars have the original engine in them unless they have documentation??? What the hell kind of documentation would guarantee that? A person would have had to take a photo of the engine when he bought the car, showing the engine pad and even then he would have to have an affidavit signed by a notary with the date on it to satisfy some of the skeptics that are out there. The poor guy who bought his car back in the 70's before all of this documentation BS started and did not get any of the sales receipts, window sticker, build sheet or anything else is now considered to have more than likely a NOM because it is so easy to counterfeit all the documentation now, to restamp the numbers and reprocess the brooch marks. Just my thoughts and they probably don't mean much.

Steve

 

 

Documentation tells you that the car came with whatever engine. It simply does not guarantee anything about the originality of the engine that is installed in the car today.

Now, some recent paper such as a Top Flight of Bloomington Gold means it passed some tough inspections, but it still does not guarantee originality. Only one engine is original: not correct, not matching, not even documented.

Honestly, I don't see any way to guarantee originality, no matter how much "experience" a particular observer has.

 

 

Guaranteed original? Nothing against anyone who makes guarantees, but would they "guarantee" they woud be willing to buy a car from someone they "guaranteed" the engine was original in when the engine was later found out to be restamped? Guarantees, there ain't no such thing. To me there are the documented cars and there's the rest of them. But alas, even this line of thinking is flawed as so called "documentation" is just some tea and a microwave away.

How does a milled deck make an engine block un-original? Yes the block has lost it's original stamp and thus a portion of it's originality. And yes if the block in question is re-stamped it's the same as the rest of the cars for sale with re-stamped blocks. If a person wants to make their car a "numbers matching" engine that would be their option. But to claims of originality, I say prove it.

We shouldn't bother ourselves with delusions of purity when it comes to things like used cars. Don't look for purity or perfection where it can't be found. We ought to just enjoy these cars for what they are (not what they were).

 

Why did people put that out there without saying anything?

Does anyone know where to look for the specs and measurements of un-decked blocks?

I would think that has to be the best way of telling if an engine is original.

 

Isn't this what Al Greening will be doing with his new service? Not a "guarantee" per se, but an expert certification?

 

Any machine shop that rebuilds engines should be able to supply that information.

 

as I am oft heard saying, use-eth thy little "search" function and ye shall find the answers you seek (hint - search on "restamp")

 

The deck height may not be the "end all" telltale of originality. It's likely that the tooling in the broach machine would take more off the deck when sharp, compared to when dull. The result is slightly taller decks as more blocks are machined (until the broach tooling is sharpened). We know deck height is not absolute, it varies throughout production, and so even this variance leaves an opening to restore originality (given enough money and tooling).

Take a tall deck block, and find an old style machine shop with a long stroke horizontal shaper to only take a few thousandths off the deck. It may take a long time to cut a deck, with a small single-tooth or gang-tooth shaper, but the automatic feed can easily duplicate the GM broach tooling line width and long straight lines for the full length of the deck.

Correct (close) casting date blocks can be purchased, correct pad numbers can be stamped, correct deck height and broach marks can be achieved, and documentation can be faked. It's all a function of time and money.

Restoration is like imitation, and is the most sincere form of flattery. If you want to celebrate and build an imitation six-pac 427 or a fuelie 327 then open the wallet and spend for spares and backup parts until you hook up with a good old-school machine shop to make it happen (and build a fake document trail). Owners with somewhat original cars may not like what this does for the restoration side of the hobby, because it places a higher demand on a verified history for the car’s documentation. If you purchased the car in the 1970’s or 1980’s documentation was only important on cars with racing history, so many owners of original cars have zero documentation (and these mostly original cars are dismissed as lacking something of value).

Like the legendary Perry Mason ending, with a notarized sealed postmarked envelope with photos of the car and all the documentation with a newspaper sharing the date it rolled off the assembly line in the background, this is where the restoration hobby is headed: to be settled in court.

Everyone has to have a hobby, but sitting in a courtroom fighting over claims of originality is not my idea of one. I would rather be outside driving and praising cars and meeting owners.

 

Where is Judge Judy when you need her?

 

Forget Judge Judy, give me Marilyn Milian.

Wasn't somebody offering chemical analysis of engine paint to insure it
was "original"?

 

I understand what your are saying concerning the deck height. However, it may be unpractical to ask a seller to remove his supposed "original" engine and completely disassemble it so the engine can be taken to a machine shop to verify the deck height. It may be be possible to establish the difference in the height between the stamp-pad and centerline of the crank at the harmonic balancer. Unpractical, but possible.

 

Judge Joe's on right now. Judy comes on next. Judge Mathis just went off and before that there were two hours of Marilyn. Jerry Springer is in between here somewhere. In the morning is Judge Hatchett but she's just doing DNA testing now. I didn't mention a couple more judge shows.

It'd be hard to find a lawyer nowadays to take your case. There all on TV!