#1.
I almost did not post... because I figured people would completely ignore the sentence...

" I didn't even get a chance to negotiate. It's a free market, but ..."

Carlisle goes from Thursday night to Sunday.
"Items" at Carlisle -may- change hands several times before us "peons" even get a chance to see them in the grunge box. Dealers go in early... which us peons cannot usually do because we have to work on Friday. So we show up on Saturday at 7:00am (or even Friday night) and pay 5th hand prices. I have personally witnessed this go on. No debate. That's the way it is. When you pick up a pair of half-shafts, they may have started out on Thursday at $40. By the time Saturday rolls around, they have changed hands 3 times, and the price is $80.

So when I took an unpaid day off to go on Friday, and walked around looking at the cars that "were" (historical sense) for sale, and see who bought them... I didn't even get a chance to negotiate.... and lost a days wages as well.

And don't even suggest that the "regular" guy can out-bid the big guys.
He just has to walk away with his tail between his legs.

#2
"If he marks them up 30-40%, you don't have to buy from him."

Absolutely true.
But when you're looking for a specific car, with specific options, and you look for 3 years... and finally come across that exact item... and it was bought on Thursday before you even finished packing... that is "rain on the parade". The "owner-enthusiast" becomes the proverbial "dumb-***".

They have a right to do what they do... I prefaced my comment with:
"It's a free market, but"

I'l say it again.... It's a free market but...

I did end up finding a car at Carlisele after looking for several years, and I bought it from the owner at a FAIR price. I didn't get it cheap, I didn't pay too much. It was a "fair price". He was happy, and I was happy. Nobody felt suckered.

I've seen the "Big Guys" prices.... and I don't consider them to be "fair" prices to a "regular" guy. For someone with deep pockets.... it's a moot point.

People with shallow pockets are going to have a different opinion than people with deep pockets on this topic.

This is my "opinion" based upon my own experience... and shallow pockets. I don't buy cars as a status symbol or an investment... I am an engineer and I appreciate the cars strictly from an engineering standpont. So my opinion is probably a bit skewed from the rest of ya'll.

They have a perfect right to do what they do.
But I don't have to admire them for it.
I'll let somebody else do that.

 

Amen to that Seaside.

Corvettes are NOT at the top of the pecking order anymore.

Regarding Carlisle, at Corvette Carlisle, I'm up there on Thursday. I'm also there Friday and Saturday.

I'll be at Spring Carlisle later this month on Friday too.

Corvette Carlisle is JAM packed on Friday. It's fairly busy on Thursday too. By Saturday, all the deals on cars AND parts are gone. In my opinion, regarding "hard to find" parts, they're all gone by Friday.

Hate to say it, but as a vendor for MANY years at Corvette Carlisle, we call Saturday "the Car Show and Tee Shirt Crowd".

We break down our vendor spot at 12 noon on Saturday and head out.

If you're serious about buying a car, or buying hard to find parts at any price, you've GOT to get there LONG before Saturday.

Chuck

 

in fact if I had been looking for something for 3yrs I would be there on Wednsday.I guess that is why I get there on Wednsday

 

At the time I was a "contractor", meaning, if I didn't work, I didn't get paid. My family is more important than my hobbies. Bills had to be paid. Mouths had to be fed. Taking off extra days was not an option. I had insurance money from my stolen/un-recovered 1971 LS5. No contingency funds. The limits were set. Wednesday or Thursday or Friday were not options. And bidding against the Big Guys was simply not going to happen. So I got up on Saturday morning at 4:00am and left for the 3 hour drive to Carlisle to be parked outside the gates, curbside at 7:00. Of course, the "good" cars had already been sold.
I got lucky with my C3.... the guy also was a "working man" and could only come on Saturday.

Every once in a while, people should try to walk a mile in someone elses shoes. Builds character.

 

Simple fact of life in our capital business community


"MONEY TALKS...OTHERS WALK"



TM is a business not a charity...regardless of his "Shadey" past, many others in this hobbey have and are dealing SHADEY today. You need to know what you are looking for... During my restoration of my 63 I have several parts in the basement I bought that did not measure up to what they were suppose to be, or I thought they were correct and had to rebuy and change them. But what I did gain was knowledge and now I fell I know almost every nut and bolt on my car, but I chose the more EXPENSIVE route of restoring a car instead of buying one....

Knowledge is power, and if you take the time and effort you can find what you are looking for...if you rather save time...then pay TM/PT the money and purchase what you want.

 

TM has had an interesting past. He made and lost more money in Corvettes than maybe all the Corvette vendors put together. As can be expected, he made some friends and some not-so-friends along the way.

Regardless, common sense says that if he were as crooked as many think, then ProTeam could not still be operating. They have been going on for what, 20 years now or more?

I feel for the guy who could only go to Carlisle on Saturday and had to take the scraps left by the big guys. It happens. But if I were in your shoes, and really wanted the best deal, I'd either go on Thursday to buy (it was only a 3 hour drive, right?), buy the car, and then go back to work.

Get there at 7, find the car to buy by noon, be home to work at 3. Or are you a contractor to someone else so you have to work their hours? In that case, accept that Thursday is a goner and see about working Saturday instead.

If that isn't the choice, then buy at the very last. When people are going home, a lot of prices come down. You may not find the car you wanted, but you may have found a great deal, which you could drive awhile and then turn to get the one you wanted.

 

I beg to differ. Have you heard of CnV Corvettes or US Corvettes? Try googling them or looking in the CF archives. Might surprise you.

 

[QUOTE=Mark_Milner;1559688826] TM has had an interesting past.

Did anyone else visit his Grand Opening festival in Napolean, OH back in '78? Huge new parts warehouse, The movie Corvette Summer had just opened and was playing for the group...the car it's self was there on display. Pace Car hype was at a full tizzy and GM was selling more Corvettes than ever. I was 22 yrs old and the Corvette was the car to have! I was living in MI then and anyone with a spouse working at GM was praying their "number" came up for the opportunity to buy a Corvette that year....a friend's wife got the "coveted blessing" and ordered a Silver Anniversary". The only hype that comes close today I feel is the public hype for Harley motorcycles.
JU

 

TM has been around for decades, in various "iterations". I'd guess he started out in the late 60's as Terry Michaelis Corvette Supplies, then as TMCS, then as SCMT, and ???? others.

Regarding purchases at Carlisle, it's not just cars that sell quickly, it's parts too. We sell more on Thursday than we do on Friday and Saturday AM combined.

We have guys running to our truck as we're unloading stuff, even before we have our spots set up. It's an amazing site.

My point is that at any flea market/garage sale type event, the "early bird gets the worm". I've bought many hard to find items on Thursday at Carlisle. For the most part, I've paid fair prices. There's little "dickering" on Thursday.

Conventional wisdom has always been that the BEST deals in the car corral are on Sunday, as the owner doesn't want to drag his car home.

Not sure if this is true or not. I would think that most of the stuff left over on Sunday is overpriced, or not desireable.

I looked for 3 years before I bought my 69BB. Could tell you war stories of trips to North Carolina, Virginia, Delaware, NJ, PA, NY, etc. looking at cars. Went to all the Carlisle events and auctions. Also went to the Bloomington Gold Auction for a number of years. Had the cash in hand.

Something will turn up. I ended up buying my 69BB right here in Maryland a few weeks after returning from BG.

AND while I'm on a bit of a rant, check out the "For Sale" area on the Forum. LOTS of nice cars for sale there.

The worst aspect of the For Sale section is that everybody picks the cars apart. Everybody is also looking to hit a "home run" price wise. Even the best baseball players hit a single or double every so often.

If you find what you want, don't haggle over a few thousand bucks. Chuck

 

I really meant the ProTeam aspect. I can't remember when that opened, mid 80s? I remember that at the time, they denied that TM was part of it. I think he was still in the middle of bankruptcies and lawsuits over some of the TMCS and other dealings. The point is, a crooked dealer may get away for a few years, but with this much time and publicity, he would have been busted by now if he was as crooked as people claim.

Heck, I remember buying parts from TM himself at Bloomington in the '70s. I remember him taking the time to tell what was right and wrong about "seconds" he was selling so that I wouldn't be upset because I found something wrong later. There aren't a lot of vendors doing that on their regular stuff, let alone the "seconds".

I haven't had any bad experiences, but I am well aware of the stories of many others.


Everyone wants a deal. This was common at small swap meets and general swaps, but now, the eBay mentality is too much in effect. It is more like a bidding war, not dealing. Seller has a $10 item, and if Seller can get 3 people looking at the same time, Seller will always get his $10, and maybe more. And being used to circling the tables frequently, sometimes I see items appear that weren't there earlier, when the crowds are bigger or different. Like more midyear parts "appear" when the midyear class gets out.

Swap meets have changed. I've had a lot of guys try to buy out from under me when I'm in the middle of a deal. Sometimes I walk away if they get the price up instead of down, sometimes I just tell them they bought the wrong item after they pay more than me.

It is getting to be less fun.

If you find what you want, you have to just buy and not worry so much about the deal. Fortunately, the prices keep climbing, so buying today is almost always cheaper than buying in 6 months, so while you don't get a great deal today, in 6 months you look like a genius. Too many here think they should be able to buy that NOM midyear for $20,000 like they could a few years ago, but it just won't happen, not on any venue that has the public looking at it in large numbers.

It might happen if you find that barn on a dirt road about about 15 miles from the nearest town that is about 45 population. But to expect deals on eBay, CF, Craigslist, and so on is like expecting to find a Cadillac at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box.

 

When I was looking for a '67 about 5 years ago I agreed on a coupe based on a inspection by an independant inspection service. The SECOND I mentioned it was a Pro Team car the man interupted me and told me their service WOULD NOT perform a inspection for any cars at Pro Team. When I asked why he told me "Pro Team cars often are NOT as represented ". That was all I needed to hear. He sounded as serious as he could.

I wondered why Pro Team agreed to my first offer, which was way low, and now I knew why.

Needless to say I withdrew my offer. My search lasted another 3 months but I got a great car at a fair price.

Corvettes aren't like other cars. They have a whole deal of different issues. No matter where you buy it, have someone who knows what they're doing inspect the car. Spending a few hundred dollars up front can save you thousands later!!!!

Good Luck!!

 

 

Great story, thanks for posting it. It is *independent* verification of what so many have said, that ProTeam has a wide dishonest streak.

 

It is illegal for a dealer to give you the name of the previous owner of a car unless they have permission from them. This is part of the new federal privacy act. The buying public thinks the dealer has to disclose this but it is against the law to do so.

 

Do you think the buyers of 1967 435 cars from ProTeam 5 years ago think they paid to much for their cars at $70,000? PT is selling cars everyday go on their website and look at how many cars are sold and what the asking price is.

People who make 6 and 7 figure incomes that maybe owned a car years ago and want one now don't even think twice about spending over 100,000 for a car.

I go to the Mecuum Auction every year at Corvette@Carlisle and I have seen Terry buy a million dollars worth the cars in a day. I have also seen other big Corvette dealers pay more money than him at the sale.

I would not want to pay his expenses to run that place for a month. I would bet it costs him about $300,000 a month just to open the doors.

If your the buyer know what your buying do your home work, if you like the price pay it, if you don't keep looking.

 

PT is a convenience for a Corvette Buyer to get a car quickly.

Convenience and and a "gotta have it now" approach comes with a price that includes:

- more expense
- being subjected to 'sales tactics"
- understanding that the dealer's goal is to extract cash out of the
buyer as much as possible

-----------------------------------------

People are "ripped off' at new car dealerships every day in the form of:

- paint sealants
- extended warranties
- destination charges
- lots of hidden charges
- unwanted tacked -on options

And ... most times walk away happy with their purchase.

 

Sometimes it's more about the attitude and they way a customer is treated, more than the price. I can buy what I want, but if I feel I'm not being treated in a respectible manner, than sayanora jerko!

 

Here is my experience with Proteam.I had looked at several locally and even driven a couple of hours away to check one out.I drove up to Proteam to look at a '67 that I read about in one of their ads.The car did not live up to what I wanted.But they had several others to choose from and I found one that was exactly what I was looking for.I brought a the local vette expert from my home area with me and had him check it out as well.He gave me his opinion of the car as well as what he felt the car was worth.I made an offer on the car.After a few minutes of negotiating and I was the proud new owner.The negotiation was nothing more or less then dealing with a local owner and a lot less trouble then a new car dealer. A few months after I bought the car I had an opportunity to buy into the company that I had been working for so now I needed to sell my new toy.The vette show in Bloomington was in a couple of weeks.I ended up having my local vette expert take it up for the auction there.The car sold through the auction and brought $3K more than I had in it even after expenses The new buyer was Proteam.The same place that I bought the car from 2 months earlier.A couple of years later I was again in a position to buy my vette.I again had been looking in all of the magazines and local papers and again I ended up going to proteam with my local vette expert in tow.Again after looking through their cars I found exactly what I wanted and negotiated a price that I was comfortable with and I was the new owner.Now 10yrs later the car is worth nearly twice what I paid for it Best advice is as in anything knowledge is power.Know what you want and know what you are looking at.If you don't bring some one who does.In Proteams ads if you read them they are all pretty much the same.Then again if you read Hemmings all of the other corvette ads are all pretty much the same as well except the other places do not have as many to compare them too.Buy what you like and pay what you what you think it is worth.Do not be afraid to negotiate and do not be afraid to walk away or look at a different car then what you orginally were looking at.Buy one and enjoy

 

this is not a knock at proteam ,but i don't think it is the best approach to buying a used vette . their advice 'to buy the best you can afford because some day you will be selling it' is excellant .

 

Gee I wonder who your local vette"expert" was