With all the public's interest in Al Gore's recent movie "An Inconvenient Truth" it appears governments are starting to bend to the global warming crowd. I fear the future of our hobby maybe bleak, possibly even doomed...

I hear rumours some states and provinces are even thinking of banning older cars. Am I paranoid or do others share my concern? Is E85 doable for vintage cars? Or

 

Theoretically there is no reason you couldn't use E-85 in older cars.

Practically speaking, you would need to modify a lot of your fuel delivery system so that it resists breaking down under the higher ethanol content of E-85. Your ignition map and carb jetting would also need to be modified.

Ethanol has less energy than gasoline so power would also be down somewhat.

 

Al Gore was here in Park City for the 2006 Sundance Film Festival - that's where his film debuted. Just so happens that a good freind of my wife and I is his cousin and lives here, so we had a chance to sit down and have some dinner one night (secret service and all). I brought up the question of vintage and classic cars with respect to the E85 proposal. Nothing definitive was presented as a yes/no will work/will not as no one at the table was technical enough to define what that meant. But, much discussion took place about preserving the heritage and history of the auto industry and what might be the end of it as we collectors know it. Al Gore said he does not believe that the issue of and preservation of classic cars is a threat to the environment. Yet there is already movement withi the American Hot Rod Association and American Muscle Cars to adopt e85 as an fuel source. NASCAR is looking at it also along with INDY car racing. Not so sure Mr. Gore knowith what he speakith about.

So the hobby is not totally dommed, but if it is to remain it must change. And the cost of that change is high. Everything from fuel lines to fuel pumps and carburators and specialy water-coated engine parts is required to run the 85/15 ethanol/pump fuel mixture. Also, the e85 may not be the final answer. The requirement to grow enough corn to fuel all cars/trucks is beyond what the American farmers can produce... so guess what. 100% switch over to e85 makes us dependent on outside nations to grow the corn and associuated products we need to produce the alcohol. Catch-22.

The jury is still out on the whole e85 thing, but it is true that we will be forced to do something to keep the classics on the road.

my .02 cents worth and oh by the way..... I am neither pro or con Gore. He was the Vice Pres and I felt honored to sit around a table and have a chance to talk with him one-on-one.

 

Gore seems to be getting the ear of alot of enviro-*****... I think his theory about global warming is not only the biggest threat to our beloved cars and hobby but also to our way of life....

 

E85 has a higher octane level - could we up the compression on our vintage cars if we converted?

 

It almost appears that he's taking a position as the punisher. He was very uncomfortable when the topic of the election came up... he took a stance of having to honor Bush as the Pres.... but we all knew he was just giving us

Octane is about 101 - we'd need to do some work to accomodate that, but not sure what. Think we'd burn the vavles on a conventional fuel engine. Also, e85 needs to be in a rubber free environment; Gas lines, carb O rings, fuel pump parts etc. The alcohol and rubber are a

Also, so as not to get this moved to OT Political, I'll stay within the original question of the cars and not the politics.

 

There is not, nor will there ever be enough E-85 to fuel all the cars. I won't get started with Gore or bug-lovers in general

 

This whole green thing is agenda driven....Follow the money.

This planet has far greater resilience and ability to repair or destroy itself than anything man can do; especially by universe time standards, which has been about a micro-second. Sure, we can do some isolated temporary damage, but mother nature has been operating in cycles pretty efficiently for mucho milleniums---for many, many years the earth has cycled through cooler, warmer, wetter, & drier periods, and will continue to operate so...in spite of Algore's spreading hysteria and nonsense about global warming due to automobiles & industry (and particularly saying Americans are primarily to blame!).
Not that we should deliberately abuse this good earth, and should try to find cheaper discovery & processing fuel methods (but, only so we're not paying ransom for it to the Middle East).

Does Algore know how to cap volacanos, stop oil seepage at the bottom of the oceans, or prevent hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, etc? Not hardly.

So, I'm not buying his either! AND, I am not going to stop driving my Vette, no matter what scare tactics the Greenies use!

 

Actually I have been looking in E85 since 2002 when I bought our suburban that had a big tag on the glove box that said E85 compatible that nobody at the dealership or friends knew anything about.

True- E85 has less energy then regular gas. 10% less

BUT
1.E85 has an octane of 110 so you can go back to 12 to 1 compression without knock so net power is same or even more.

True- you need to change gas lines, pumps, and jets for carb.

But
1. You can order a stainless tank from Rock Valley with fuel pump from a new suburban, tahoe, or 20-30 other compatible E85 vehicles that supply more then enough fuel.
2. Replace line or lines (fuel injected cars) with braided line made for E85 or stay will stainless line and rubber lines that are compatible with Alcohol.
3. Rejet carb and adj timing curve.

Cost 1000 for tank and pump, 200 for lines, 300-400 for mechanic to rejet, adj timing curve, and up compression to 12-1 1000. Total 2600

Not bad to be enivorment friendly.

Now for producing E85.

Currently we pay farmers billions and billions (can you say TAXES) not to grow crops so if we could stop paying the farmers subsidies not to grow crops and let them grow corn, wheat, maize, milo, sugar cane, switch grass and more plants. They could produce a major part of the fuel we need. Can they produce 100%? Not sure studies show both yes and no. But with some people opting for the hybrids, small econ cars, E85, and other new technologies that should cover it.

So in short lower taxes by letting farmers grow crops, keep the US money here by buying E85 instead of overseas oil, create more jobs here in the US (by producing E85), and gas prices will come down with more E85 being produced.

I personal have setup my car for E85. I have a rock valley tank with alcohol compatible pump, braided lines that are alcohol compatible, and fuel injection. When I deceide to go to E85 I will install a Fast system instead of the mefi 3 system so I can adjust fuel and timing maps. You can run larger injector and have 2 fuel and timing maps. One for gas and one for E85. The FAST system will let you switch it back and forth.

Chuck

 

Real world test results that I saw showed a GM E85 SUV got 27% worst gas mileage when running on E85 then on straight gasoline. We had one local station selling E85 a year ago, but now he dosen't. When the E85 owners saw the drastic drop in their gas mileage and the E85 was only a nickel a gallon cheaper then straight gasoline, they quit buying it. E85, or even 10% blend can not be pumped in the pipelines, it has to added locally. A company was going to build a processing plant just outside of town, on a railroad main line just for local 10% blend consumption. 250 railroad hoppers every day, or three trains, of corn shipped in, to suppy the local market. One of the problems was they were going to have to dig a very deep well for all the water to process the corn to alcohol. 1,267,200 gallons of water/day. The locals living in the area sued, and won, to stop the building of the plant, as it would have dried up the water wells in that area. You are talking tens of thousands of people plus livestock that would have been competing for that water. Check the price of corn lately. It has doubled. Also the price of soybeans has gone up due to acreage being changed over to corn. Not only will the price of corn that we humans eat cost more, feed that is fed to beef, poulty, pork, etc that we eat will also be drive up the cost of meat. This will greatly affect the poor, as they will still want to be able to eat, but will they be able to afford it. As land is changed over to grow corn, the use of insecticides and fertilizers will increase, and runoff will effect the ground water. Also, when growing corn in areas with low rainfall, water will have to be pumped in, but from where? What happens when we have a drought that last for a couple of years and the farmers only see a 25%-50% yield on their corn? Are we going to park our cars for a couple of years because we don't the infrastructure to supply ourselfs with enough gasoline any longer. We can burn oil but we can't drink it if there's a clean water shortage. One study showed that it would take 10 units of energy to produce 1 unit of energy if we switched to alcohol.

 

Given the fact that E85 will be available soon, it is good to have this discussion so that we can all figure out wtf to do to be ready.

I think there is a lack of understanding here about the science and policy behind E85 because some people are ranting at evironmentalists for no real reason. E85 will not reduce greenhouse gases, that is neither its purpose nor the intent of the option. It is to reduce the dependance on oil, which is a limited resource that with the exception of the two largest foreign suppliers, is controlled by some governments that are less than friendly to ours. Brasil is a country with few oil reserves and yet it is energy independant because of its methanol production. This is a logical policy for the US to follow as well, although I doubt that enough corn, sugar beets or whatever can be grown to supply the whole consumer market because unlike Brasil, we have a lot of cars per capita and we do not live in a country that is close to the equator with a correspondingly longer growing season.

So ravers, the intent is to free us from hostile control of our energy and not to "spare the air" . If you have ever stood at trackside while alcohol cars are running, you know how friendly it is to your eyes..

How many of those reading this even knew that Canada and Mexico are the largest foreign providers of oil and that the entire middle east only supplies under 15% of our fuel? Do the math - E85 has 15% less gasoline by volume. E85 makes sense from a political, security, and economic viewpoint.

That being said , it is pretty corosive stuff indeed but Summit has the parts you need to get by that , just look in the fuelie section....

 

E85 is does not make economic sense in the US. ETOH is typically .30 or more per gallon than gasoline.

The only reason E85 is cheaper at the pump is because of tax credits. I'd much rather my tax dollars go into reducing the deficit, military pay increases, or almost any other initiative.

 

To me Gore is the biggest hipocrite going..... why you ask..... his house.... excuse me mansion...... consumes on average $3,500 per month in electrical usage....... That works out to almost $40K per year just for electricity....... wonder what his oil bill is......

Maybe he is getting free "samples" of E85.....

By the way he is "porking" it on maybe he knows something we don't.....

 

"Does Algore know how to cap volacanos, stop oil seepage at the bottom of the oceans, or prevent hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, etc? Not hardly. "

No, but you can bet good money that he will tell you he can !

 

Don't forget about the Internet...... he invented it.... Gotta give credit where credit is due.....

 

Seems I remember, while waiting in a very long line to get gas back in the seventies after the oil crisis of 1973, that those in the "know" said the earth was cooling off and the world was going to end because of it, and that the world's supply of oil would be exhausted in 20 years.

 

1. I have use E85 in my suburban since 2002 and I see my mpg at 14 around town with gas and 13mpg around town with E85. That has been my experience. Same driving habits, routines, and loads.

2.Actually this is the first I heard of that, makes me wonder why they would have a plant here in New Mexico (desert). But I will look into that. Maybe they need to build the plants on the coast line and use sea water?

3. Have you seen the price of home, clothes, medical insurance, and others? everthing is going up, I guess the billions they save in farming subsidies they can spend on grocery store subisdies, kidding aside I believe it will even out. The more demand for food, the more farmers we will get and then the cost will come down. I would rather pay a farmer more money then pay foreign countries for oil.

4. Farming is advancing and with better land management, farmers will be able to grow more and mange with less chemicals. Now they will have the money to research more. Did I mention we pay them not to grow crops now? Also we can use other sources like tree scraps and other crops. Normal we have droughts in sections of the country not the entire country. So if the midwest is producing less the south will improve and vice versa. And if the tree huggers are right the north will soon be producing crops too.

5. As I said ealier E85 is not the answer for 100% gas replacement, it will take electric, hybrids, and other technologies. The years that droughts happen will be years they have to fall back on gas, tree scraps , and maybe importing crops from third world countries. But it would be better then sending money to the mideast.

6. 10 to 1 those studies are from the 80's. That is a worst caase scenario using the worst crop with old processing. But say it was 10 to 1 and we were using a crop that is renewable and the end price was the same as gas. WHO CARES? Oh forgot, its cleaner and does not pollute the ground if spilled. (Alcohol not the E85 since it's 15% gas)


Chuck

 

Amen brother, it's always something isn't it ??? This "we're running out of oil" thing & "we're ruining the earth" flares up with every generation! They just change the time frame for the end of life and/or find some other different approach...and then be-grudge Big Oil; but they themselves won't give up any oil based products or driving!!!

And since we "ravens" don't get it, now we're supposed to convert our Vettes to E85 fuel to save the planet??? Right!~!

 

"The sky is falling!, the sky is falling!"

If I understand correctly....Yellowstone National Park is going to erupt as a cataclysmic volcano; the icebergs are going to melt and raise sea levels 1 to 20 feet depending on who you ask; the northwest US is way overdue for Mt. Rainier's eruption; California is years past their time for a devastating earthquake; if an earthquake occurs a Tsunami will devastate the northwest shorelines; Hillary Clinton could become President; and there might be an asteroid out there in space that we haven't found yet that will impact earth in the future.

Why worry about ethanol?

 

To set the record straight I don't believe at all, human's are causing global warming...

I believe it is a normal cycle our planet goes through every so many of thousands of years... I do believe sun spots, solar flares and other solar activity have a bigger impact on our climate then fossil fuels....

BUT the sad thing is alot of people are buying into Al Gore's crap... I know many at work are blaming Hummers, Vettes, hot rods etc for our climate change. A few have even questioned my concern for the planet when I own a 40+ year old Vette... Another sad thing is, these mis-informed nutcases seem to be getting the ear of our policy makers...