another stamping question
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,233
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Jack: Wouldn't you think the real culprit here are the ones (buyers) who are willing to pay more, pay a premium for whatever their reason(s) may be?
This whole problem is about money, isn't it?
You can't control what any organization does but you can control your own actions. If you want to contribute to fixing the problem, just say "no" to a premium price for a pad stamping. There's so many re-stamps now that it cannot possibly be controlled so why worry about it?
This whole problem is about money, isn't it?
You can't control what any organization does but you can control your own actions. If you want to contribute to fixing the problem, just say "no" to a premium price for a pad stamping. There's so many re-stamps now that it cannot possibly be controlled so why worry about it?
The same thing is true in the Ferrari world (and you can't plame the NCRS or Bloomington Gold) in that original engine cars and even more so - unrestored cars - are more valuable (all things like condition being equal). Now why would those stupid Ferrari folk copy those lesser type Corvette people?
Why do original Carrol Shelby built Cobras go for more than a re-pop? Seems to me that they can both be just as fast.
Why is original Tiffany glass more expensive then reproductions - they look the same?
Why would an original Monet be worth more than an expert copy?
Why is there value to people to look at a car (or any other object) and say IT WAS THERE during the time it represents.
Jeez - they even understand in Hollywood - Remember Raiders of the Lost Ark:
"Look at this. It's worthless - ten dollars from a vendor in the street. But I take it, I bury it in the sand for a thousand years, it becomes priceless. Like the Ark. .... Inside the Ark are treasures beyond your wildest aspirations. You want to see it opened as well as I. Indiana, we are simply passing through history. This, this *is* history. "
Restamped engines are NOT history - they are an attempt to fake what is not and ultimately to defraud some buyer down the line - period.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
This is what I meant. Just "say no" to a premium price for the stamp pad.
Those numbers are good for only two things:
Boasting or judging! Neither adds real value to the quality of the car.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,808
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From: Westport CT
And having been to Barrett Jackson for the last 4 years, I can also tell you that a Mustang that Carol Shelby farted in once will fetch waaay more money than a similar Mustang that was not subjected to Mr. Shelby's flatulence . . .
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
you might not think so (that a car with its original engine is worth more than a car with some other engine in it) but the rest of the world seems to feel otherwise.
And having been to Barrett Jackson for the last 4 years, I can also tell you that a Mustang that Carol Shelby farted in once will fetch waaay more money than a similar Mustang that was not subjected to Mr. Shelby's flatulence . . .
And having been to Barrett Jackson for the last 4 years, I can also tell you that a Mustang that Carol Shelby farted in once will fetch waaay more money than a similar Mustang that was not subjected to Mr. Shelby's flatulence . . .
"(Some) of the rest of the world".
Crazy, isn't it?
Now, I'm done.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,345
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From: Northern MN
St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15-'16-'17
As one who suggested "taking the pad out" of the NCRS judging process, I have a thought or two.
In the grand scheme of things, and I know it wasn't the intention of the NCRS, the damage is already done. The time for adopting such a proposal (taking the stamp pad out) was 25 years ago; the fact that the NCRS has been judging Corvette stamp pads for original appearance (including, yes, that the numbers on that pad match the rest of the car) has had the unintended consequence of urging those who seek to TF their cars to create original appearing stamp pads (yes, only a few points to be gained there, but each point counts in that game) - that has surely helped pump out a whole bunch of restamped engines into circulation, and then there is the problem with sellers claiming that the NCRS "certified" the car to be original (heck they judge it to that standard, right?) which could surely have been avoided, at least as far as the original engine issue is concerned, if the NCRS had "taken the pad out of it" long ago. Instead, they have now added to the confusion by selling award confirmations for cars, perhaps a nice little money-maker but that even furthers the problem and enhances the [mistaken] belief that the NCRS certifies actual originality (I still cringe every time I hear an auctioneer proclaim "NCRS Certified" and they NEVER say "NCRS has certified that it did win the awards it claims to have won").
But here it is, 2009, and really, what's to be gained by now changing course? I am not blaming the NCRS for intentionally creating this mess, at worst, the judging game that certain club members choose to have fun with has only contributed to the mess, and that certainly was never their intention.
Personally, I am surprised that the legal liability issues that swirl around this topic did not convince the NCRS to take a step back many years ago, but then again, I am not their lawyer. Personally, my view on re-stamping is that, aside from the ethical and legal issues, I hate to see this market polluted with any more faked engine pads. Sadly (for me, as a 15 year NCRS member) I cannot help but believe they are a little bit responsible for the mess, albeit unintentionally.
In the grand scheme of things, and I know it wasn't the intention of the NCRS, the damage is already done. The time for adopting such a proposal (taking the stamp pad out) was 25 years ago; the fact that the NCRS has been judging Corvette stamp pads for original appearance (including, yes, that the numbers on that pad match the rest of the car) has had the unintended consequence of urging those who seek to TF their cars to create original appearing stamp pads (yes, only a few points to be gained there, but each point counts in that game) - that has surely helped pump out a whole bunch of restamped engines into circulation, and then there is the problem with sellers claiming that the NCRS "certified" the car to be original (heck they judge it to that standard, right?) which could surely have been avoided, at least as far as the original engine issue is concerned, if the NCRS had "taken the pad out of it" long ago. Instead, they have now added to the confusion by selling award confirmations for cars, perhaps a nice little money-maker but that even furthers the problem and enhances the [mistaken] belief that the NCRS certifies actual originality (I still cringe every time I hear an auctioneer proclaim "NCRS Certified" and they NEVER say "NCRS has certified that it did win the awards it claims to have won").
But here it is, 2009, and really, what's to be gained by now changing course? I am not blaming the NCRS for intentionally creating this mess, at worst, the judging game that certain club members choose to have fun with has only contributed to the mess, and that certainly was never their intention.
Personally, I am surprised that the legal liability issues that swirl around this topic did not convince the NCRS to take a step back many years ago, but then again, I am not their lawyer. Personally, my view on re-stamping is that, aside from the ethical and legal issues, I hate to see this market polluted with any more faked engine pads. Sadly (for me, as a 15 year NCRS member) I cannot help but believe they are a little bit responsible for the mess, albeit unintentionally.
Lets not blame the NCRS for this. Lets put it on who really caused this problem. The Federal Government and the Auto Manufacturers. After all, if no serial numbers or date of manufacture was stamped on the engines we wouldn't have this problem. We could put any engine in the car and be legit. We could all drive them like they were supposed to be driven and never worry about blowing them up because we can replace them with anything we want. In fact, blame them for the trim tags also. If we didn't have them we could paint the car any color we wanted, we could put any trim in we wanted and the car would still be called restored. No deduction for anything.
This whole argument is lame. It only matters if someone is building their car for re-sale later and want to try to fool someone down the road. The smart ones like cjackster and others would do a complete inspection of any car they buy. They should be able to tell a re-stamped engine from an original and if they couldn't they would not pay the price for a undocumented car. That would be their choice. Why don't we all take a break and go to the local pub, casino, cat house or where-ever and tip a few cold ones. I'm sure the more we drink the smarter we'll get and the more we will tolerate each other.
And by the way I am not an NCRS member, I don't plan to be one and my car could never pass the muster of any flight but it is mine and it is one of the only True American Sports cars.
Racer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Mike,
I use "Corvette by the numbers" by Alan Colvin. Makes it easy to track down the correct components. Corvette numbering and dating systems are explained in detail. If you are determined to restamp the block, I would suggest that you become an expert before ever attempting it.
Andy
I use "Corvette by the numbers" by Alan Colvin. Makes it easy to track down the correct components. Corvette numbering and dating systems are explained in detail. If you are determined to restamp the block, I would suggest that you become an expert before ever attempting it.
Andy
A restamped engine is a fraud. No if's ands or but's.
I doubt if restampers are doing it for fun. They are doing it to deceive others into beliving something that is not true.
They are the ones that generate distrust in our hobby.I agree that the whole, "matching numbers" thing is a monster and should be reviewed.
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Instructor
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 153
Likes: 1
From: bay city mi
[/U]
A restamped engine is a fraud. No if's ands or but's.
I doubt if restampers are doing it for fun. They are doing it to deceive others into beliving something that is not true. They are the ones that generate distrust in our hobby.
I agree that the whole, "matching numbers" thing is a monster and should be reviewed.
A restamped engine is a fraud. No if's ands or but's.
I doubt if restampers are doing it for fun. They are doing it to deceive others into beliving something that is not true.
They are the ones that generate distrust in our hobby.I agree that the whole, "matching numbers" thing is a monster and should be reviewed.
Andy
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,354
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I don't see the harm in what you are attempting to do. I don't have a restamped engine but I do know plenty that have them. Most of the guys that are crying on here either found "A deal" and got burned or they have restamped engines they think are "Original". Don't pay any of them attention! Do what makes you happy. I would advise you on one thing. Take the advise from the quote above and educate yourself before you touch the pad. Some people don't like the idea of restamping and blame NCRS for the numbers matching craze. I would like to see those who complain force NCRS to change this! Some claim it's a crime too, Pish! What-eva! If it's so wrong and hurting so many people then let's all get together and start turning in our fake cars, who wants to go first? (don't come off with this 
, My car is "Original".) What you are going to run into is the FACT, white cars are now red. 3 speed cars are now 4 speed cars. Non posi cars are now posi-traction, and the list goes on. This is stupid and crazy for a bunch of grown men to whine like little girls because somebody stamped an engine that the cry baby has never, don't, and never will own. If you decide to set fire to your car, it's no one elses business. Go for it, Stamp, Stamp, Stamp!Just so I am clear, in your opinion, there are no original cars remaining?
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 53,997
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From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.
Exactly. Who is this Grand Poobah who gets to "review" it?
Where do these concepts like "accepted alternative" and "review it" come from??
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 53,997
Likes: 6,213
From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.
I guess I was just trying point out that restamps can almost always be discovered to be a fraud by the informed buyer. Trying to slow the guy abit, maybe rethink his position. Personally, I am not in favor of the whole restamp mentality. It's interesting how some people jump on the restamp thing as the first step in their restoration.
Andy
Andy
Racer
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 429
Likes: 1
From: Jefferson Georgia
There isn't near as many as the proud owners would like to think are "Original". This fake car trend started a loooong time before engine stamping was ever heard of. Here is one for you, What about the cars that do have the "Original" engine that are now being built from quality or nice used parts and passed off as "Survivors"? This is happening all the time too and they fetch the high dollars. I have never seen a thread on here about this issue (not to say there isn't one). Why is the "Survivor" issue not being bashed to death? My opinion is that if a car has ever been touched by even the slightest repair or restore it's never again "Original". I have seen only a few examples of cars that have survived without being too badly modified from repainting, rechroming, or rebuilding some part of it. Now, who's got an "Original" car?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
There isn't near as many as the proud owners would like to think are "Original". This fake car trend started a loooong time before engine stamping was ever heard of. Here is one for you, What about the cars that do have the "Original" engine that are now being built from quality or nice used parts and passed off as "Survivors"? This is happening all the time too and they fetch the high dollars. I have never seen a thread on here about this issue (not to say there isn't one). Why is the "Survivor" issue not being bashed to death? My opinion is that if a car has ever been touched by even the slightest repair or restore it's never again "Original". I have seen only a few examples of cars that have survived without being too badly modified from repainting, rechroming, or rebuilding some part of it. Now, who's got an "Original" car?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,808
Likes: 24
From: Westport CT
mostly because I don't give a rats *** about BG survivor status myself, it is patently false to even consider the proposition that a whole slew of cars that have won that award are trully untouched "survivors" - that's akin to all brides still wearing white, while we all know that about 98% of them ain't virgins.
sure, there are a few "survivor units" in that group too . . . perhaps 2% or less . .
and, the marketplace doesn't put the same upcharge in value on a car if, as between two identical cars, one has a BG survivor award.
sure, there are a few "survivor units" in that group too . . . perhaps 2% or less . .
and, the marketplace doesn't put the same upcharge in value on a car if, as between two identical cars, one has a BG survivor award.
Tech Contributor
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15,576
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From: Conroe Texas
http://www.camaros.org/engine.shtml#ReplacementEngines
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,233
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There isn't near as many as the proud owners would like to think are "Original". This fake car trend started a loooong time before engine stamping was ever heard of. Here is one for you, What about the cars that do have the "Original" engine that are now being built from quality or nice used parts and passed off as "Survivors"? This is happening all the time too and they fetch the high dollars. I have never seen a thread on here about this issue (not to say there isn't one). Why is the "Survivor" issue not being bashed to death? My opinion is that if a car has ever been touched by even the slightest repair or restore it's never again "Original". I have seen only a few examples of cars that have survived without being too badly modified from repainting, rechroming, or rebuilding some part of it. Now, who's got an "Original" car?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
I'm not a used car salesman like some here but I know there is big money being paid by a growing percentage of buyers for cars that will pass the sniff test in the survivor arena.
Actually, many buyers will not even consider buying a restored car. Just survivor type.
Maybe the reason Zadspal has never seen a thread here regarding Survivor type cheats is because the ones that buy and value these cars usually know what they're looking at whereas in many cases, the restoration buyer many times doesn't have clue even though in many cases, they THINK they do but yet aren't really confident enough to venture into the real world for a purchse without worrying about getting screwed so they come on here and bitch about, thinking somebody will hold their hand.
(how do you like that for a run on sentence?)
Last edited by MikeM; Mar 13, 2009 at 09:22 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,233
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It's that Benchmark quality that MikeM is refering to when he mentions big bucks.