HELP! Engine Pinging/clatter!
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 109
Likes: 1
From: Huntsville, AL
HELP! Engine Pinging/clatter!
CAR: '66 VETTE 327/350 hp: [B][I] I have been loosing water... About half of the reservoir after driving about 60 miles. Temp has been ok. Today I used a block sealer after flushing the cooling system and replacing the coolant with a 50/50 mix. Instructions on the product called "Blue Devil" told me to let the engine idle for 50 minutes, then test drive, then replace tstat, and check coolant level. I did all of the above. NOW I am getting a pinging, and the temp is running about 210 after driving around for about 15 minutes. Some hard running, but not too much. First thought I had or may still have air in the cooling system, but level is ok in the reservoir. I had good temps before (until the water level got low) and did not notice the pinging. The temp is fine sitting at idle, but rises after driving. PLEASE give me your thoughts/advice/solutions. THANKS VERY MUCH!
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 110
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From: Yuba City CA
Check the timing, for the ping. If timing is too far advanced, our far-from-good-quality gas will create a ping.
But since you have a cooling issue too, I would lean more toward the possibility of a head gasket problem, or possible cracked cylinder. You should use a pressure tester. It goes on your radiator in place of the radiator cap, you pump it up by hand, and see how long the entire cooling system holds pressure. If it won't hold pressure, and you see no external leaks.....check for water in the oil....water in the oil likely cracked cylinder. Water out the exhaust likely head gasket. Also pull the spark plugs after the car sits over night. A cylinder with water present will give you a rusty spark plug, but you can't pull them with the engine hot. The cool down and condensation is what creates the rust.
But since you have a cooling issue too, I would lean more toward the possibility of a head gasket problem, or possible cracked cylinder. You should use a pressure tester. It goes on your radiator in place of the radiator cap, you pump it up by hand, and see how long the entire cooling system holds pressure. If it won't hold pressure, and you see no external leaks.....check for water in the oil....water in the oil likely cracked cylinder. Water out the exhaust likely head gasket. Also pull the spark plugs after the car sits over night. A cylinder with water present will give you a rusty spark plug, but you can't pull them with the engine hot. The cool down and condensation is what creates the rust.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Camp Verde AZ
C1 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
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IMO, block sealer is used for engines in cars that you want to make last long enuf to sell to somebody else.
it probably clogged your radiator.
You did drain it and flush and add new coolant, right?
Doug
it probably clogged your radiator.
You did drain it and flush and add new coolant, right?
Doug
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2007
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Army
What prob were you trying to solve...going straight to block sealer because you lost some coolant is pretty radical. Is your reservoir like a C1 expansion tank ? If so its only supposed to be 1/2 full anyway.
I've had such additives clog up my whole system on a slant-6 Chrysler motor so drain it out of there as AZDoug says.
Sounds to me like your timing is on the edge and a little extra temp when running has brought on the pinging. If you are losing that much water then what the second post recommends should uncover the problem... Another check is to see if you are getting combustion gases in your coolant by running for a while with the radiator cap off and looking for steady bubbles. Sure sign of a blown head gasket or worse.
I've had such additives clog up my whole system on a slant-6 Chrysler motor so drain it out of there as AZDoug says.
Sounds to me like your timing is on the edge and a little extra temp when running has brought on the pinging. If you are losing that much water then what the second post recommends should uncover the problem... Another check is to see if you are getting combustion gases in your coolant by running for a while with the radiator cap off and looking for steady bubbles. Sure sign of a blown head gasket or worse.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2008
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From: columbus oh
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
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From: Greenville, Indiana
The reservoir is only supposed to be about half full when the engine is hot. If you fill it full, it will puke out.
I'd say you have an air bubble in the engine.
Don't know about Blue Devil but some block sealers tell you to run the engine after you put it in, then drain the cooling system and refill with fresh coolant leaving only the sealant that migrated to the crack, leak or whatever you think you had there.
If you want to check your cooling system for a compression leak into it, remove any belts driving the water pump. Remove the thermostat housing, top off the coolant in the manifold and then start the engine. If you have compression leaking into the cooling system, you'll see bubbles coming up.
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 110
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From: Yuba City CA
I am guessing that a lot of guys on here (two out of four anyway) post without reading. They spot some key words and type whatever comes to mind first.
You were having major cooling and water loss issues BEFORE the block seal right? Maybe the radiator knew you were gonna put block seal in it before hand, and plugged itself so it could make you search for a labor intensive problem with your engine. Are you abusive to your radiator? Is there a reason for your radiator to hate you this much? Maybe your radiator is gonna hold out on you forseven more days...and scream APRIL FOOLS!!!
I have head studs on more than one race engine. Head studs almost always leak water after assembly. Every time I freshen an engine it gets a can of KW Block Seal. And never have had radiator issues.
P.S. No sarcasm, if evident, was directed toward the creator of this thread. But the good info was.
You were having major cooling and water loss issues BEFORE the block seal right? Maybe the radiator knew you were gonna put block seal in it before hand, and plugged itself so it could make you search for a labor intensive problem with your engine. Are you abusive to your radiator? Is there a reason for your radiator to hate you this much? Maybe your radiator is gonna hold out on you forseven more days...and scream APRIL FOOLS!!!
I have head studs on more than one race engine. Head studs almost always leak water after assembly. Every time I freshen an engine it gets a can of KW Block Seal. And never have had radiator issues.
P.S. No sarcasm, if evident, was directed toward the creator of this thread. But the good info was.
Last edited by jadams67; Mar 25, 2009 at 09:12 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
"Temp has been ok."
I took that to mean he DIDN"T have cooling problems before the block seal. You must have read it differently.
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Instructor
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 110
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From: Yuba City CA
They should make a smiley for "foot in mouth" Sorry guys, I can own up to that one. It was funny though right? I still don't agree that one can of block seal clogged the radiator. A pressure test would be my starting point.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,540
Likes: 51
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Along with all the good advice above....., I'd check to see if the distributor hold down bolt lossened a bit which could have allowed your distributor to turn and advanced your timimg......, causing the "pinging and clatter". As for the coolant loss......., pull the oil dipstick and see if the oil looks milky/creamy. If it does, you've got a blown head gasket (or worse). One last thing......., I wouldn't go dumping stuff like "Stop Leak" and "Block Sealer" into any motor you care about. Find the problem and park the car until you can fix it correctly. Just my 2cents..........
Cartoon Character
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,440
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From: Can't be more than 114... Arizona
After you check the radiator..
If your engine is pinging now it is probably due to the high temperature in the heads because the Block Seal has plugged the small water journals. You should take the heads off and make sure that water will flow through the heads correctly. If you were losing water it may have been leaking from any part of the engine including the head gaskets or the intake gaskets. You should , going forward, pressure test the system if you suspect a leak somewhere...
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
A guy gave me a 350" engine out of a '73 Blazer he had been driving to work. He said it used two gallons of water driving 15 miles to work and two gallons of water driving the 15 miles home. He'd been driving it that way for a year and finally got tired of hauling water around with him.
I installed the engine in a '65 Chevy II along with a can of Barr's Stop leak. Gave the car to my kid to drive. He ran it a year and a half. No coolant loss and the engine ran fine until one day it quit. I took it apart. A connecting rod had siezed to the crank and broke it and took out the camshaft in the process.
The car had a single core, cross flow radiator in it. Never any sign of running warm.
I've never used block sealer by name but I have used the Barr's radiator stop leak a number of times, always with success and never any negative side effects that were obvious. It doesn't clog the cooling system. It simply goes to where it finds air, seals it and the rest that's not needed stays in suspension in the cooling system.
Some block sealers are supposed to be drained after the initial dose and that may be to drain out excess sealer that may clog your system. It's important to follow directions on the can.
I installed the engine in a '65 Chevy II along with a can of Barr's Stop leak. Gave the car to my kid to drive. He ran it a year and a half. No coolant loss and the engine ran fine until one day it quit. I took it apart. A connecting rod had siezed to the crank and broke it and took out the camshaft in the process.
The car had a single core, cross flow radiator in it. Never any sign of running warm.
I've never used block sealer by name but I have used the Barr's radiator stop leak a number of times, always with success and never any negative side effects that were obvious. It doesn't clog the cooling system. It simply goes to where it finds air, seals it and the rest that's not needed stays in suspension in the cooling system.
Some block sealers are supposed to be drained after the initial dose and that may be to drain out excess sealer that may clog your system. It's important to follow directions on the can.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 109
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From: Huntsville, AL
I have checked the timing and is dead on at 10deg BTDC. No water in the oil, filled the reservoir 1/2 full when cold, and still the problem exists. Instructions do not tell me to drain the system after installing the treatment. I called the manufacturer of the "Blue Devil" today and the man advised me to take the car and have the system pressure flushed because he said that sediment in the block has clogged the system. When I installed the treatment, I did NOT use a chemical flush, and just flushed with water. It appeared to be very clean when I started the process. I feel that the system is clogged, but I am not loosing water anymore.
should I raise the front end of the car to see if I still have air in the system? I am planning to take the car in to have the system pressure flushed with a chemical tomorrow. Please give me your thoughts.....THANKS!
should I raise the front end of the car to see if I still have air in the system? I am planning to take the car in to have the system pressure flushed with a chemical tomorrow. Please give me your thoughts.....THANKS!
Racer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 269
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I didn't see what lifters you have in that 327 engine. You mentioned clatter and hot running before the radiator discussion I believe. I wonder if you have lifters that need to be adjusted. My car ran hot and clattered when the lifters were misadjusted. When hot, I mean 210-220 degrees while idleling for 20-30 minutes. When adjusted properly I'll be at 170-180. Good luck.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 109
Likes: 1
From: Huntsville, AL
Pressure test revealed that I lost about 4 pounds of pressure in about 30 minutes, but cannot find an external leak. This was done BEFORE I installed the block sealer. The attachment did NOT fit as a replacement for the reservoir tank cap, but was a tapered rubber piece that I pushed down into the cap opening. THis could have leaked over the 30 minute time span.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 109
Likes: 1
From: Huntsville, AL
I didn't see what lifters you have in that 327 engine. You mentioned clatter and hot running before the radiator discussion I believe. I wonder if you have lifters that need to be adjusted. My car ran hot and clattered when the lifters were misadjusted. When hot, I mean 210-220 degrees while idleling for 20-30 minutes. When adjusted properly I'll be at 170-180. Good luck.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
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From: Greenville, Indiana
Pull the thermostat housing and see if the intake is full to the top. If it's not, you had a bubble in the system. You can also check your heater and see if it is blowing hot air. If it blows warm or cool that can indicate low coolant.
I'd be careful about using a chemical flush in that cooling system if you have an aluminum radiator.
If you drained the block thorugh the drain plugs on the sides and coolant ran out freely, you probably don't have a clogged block. That's the first place the sediment settles to is around those plugs.
Two statements from your original post:
"I have been losing water... About half of the reservoir after driving about 60 miles."
"I had good temps before (until the water level got low)"
If your surge can gets half empty, it will not cause overheating. It can be all the way empty and not cause overheating.
So, something is not right with the problem description here.
I'd be careful about using a chemical flush in that cooling system if you have an aluminum radiator.
If you drained the block thorugh the drain plugs on the sides and coolant ran out freely, you probably don't have a clogged block. That's the first place the sediment settles to is around those plugs.
Two statements from your original post:
"I have been losing water... About half of the reservoir after driving about 60 miles."
"I had good temps before (until the water level got low)"
If your surge can gets half empty, it will not cause overheating. It can be all the way empty and not cause overheating.
So, something is not right with the problem description here.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 109
Likes: 1
From: Huntsville, AL
Pull the thermostat housing and see if the intake is full to the top. If it's not, you had a bubble in the system. You can also check your heater and see if it is blowing hot air. If it blows warm or cool that can indicate low coolant.
I'd be careful about using a chemical flush in that cooling system if you have an aluminum radiator.
If you drained the block thorugh the drain plugs on the sides and coolant ran out freely, you probably don't have a clogged block. That's the first place the sediment settles to is around those plugs.
Two statements from your original post:
"I have been losing water... About half of the reservoir after driving about 60 miles."
"I had good temps before (until the water level got low)"
If your surge can gets half empty, it will not cause overheating. It can be all the way empty and not cause overheating.
So, something is not right with the problem description here.
I'd be careful about using a chemical flush in that cooling system if you have an aluminum radiator.
If you drained the block thorugh the drain plugs on the sides and coolant ran out freely, you probably don't have a clogged block. That's the first place the sediment settles to is around those plugs.
Two statements from your original post:
"I have been losing water... About half of the reservoir after driving about 60 miles."
"I had good temps before (until the water level got low)"
If your surge can gets half empty, it will not cause overheating. It can be all the way empty and not cause overheating.
So, something is not right with the problem description here.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
So, when the engine is cold, the tank is half full. You run it for 15 minutes or so and the tank is empty and the engine temperature rises. Then, you shut it off and let the engine cool. Does the tank then come back to half full as the engine cools or do you have to add coolant to get it there?