Two plane drive shaft angles
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Instructor
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Two plane drive shaft angles
Anyone use C4 suspension on a C1 chassis without offsetting engine? I have not found any data to endorse this. In my searching, I have found only one statement from Drivelines Northwest, Inc. "the limitation of a driveline is the fact that they will only operate through angles in one plane. A compound angle (or an angle in two planes) will cause a vibration, and lead to premature failure and possible damage." They go on to say that a 'constant velocity' U-joint is used for cases of compound angles.
Has anyone facts or experience in not offsetting the engine? What, if any problems and how they were corrected?
Thanks Don
Has anyone facts or experience in not offsetting the engine? What, if any problems and how they were corrected?
Thanks Don
Le Mans Master
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http://www.markwilliams.com/driveshafttech.aspx
Operating Angle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Operating angles in a driveshaft are the angles between the pinion, driveshaft and transmission centerlines. The optimal angle for any driveshaft to run at is 0 degrees, where many vibrational and frictional problems are non-existent. In order to minimize power loss and vibration in an offset configuration, the pinion centerline and the transmission centerline need to be parallel. In general, the largest angle for racing applications should 2 degrees and the centerlines should be parallel within 1/2 degree. With suspension movement the operating angle will increase, but should not exceed 15 degrees. If the centerlines are off too far, the u-joints travel at uneven operating velocities, causing vibration (this is the same problem induced by poorly phased end yokes). This vibration is hard to distinguish from an unbalanced driveshaft.
Operating Angle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Operating angles in a driveshaft are the angles between the pinion, driveshaft and transmission centerlines. The optimal angle for any driveshaft to run at is 0 degrees, where many vibrational and frictional problems are non-existent. In order to minimize power loss and vibration in an offset configuration, the pinion centerline and the transmission centerline need to be parallel. In general, the largest angle for racing applications should 2 degrees and the centerlines should be parallel within 1/2 degree. With suspension movement the operating angle will increase, but should not exceed 15 degrees. If the centerlines are off too far, the u-joints travel at uneven operating velocities, causing vibration (this is the same problem induced by poorly phased end yokes). This vibration is hard to distinguish from an unbalanced driveshaft.
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Incidentally, if your planning on retrofitting C4 front suspension componentry (A-arms, springs, spindles) onto the original C1 front crossmember, I'm sure there are at least a few people on here that would be interested in hearing the details. 
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Instructor
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Firstgear. thanks for your imput. If you lable your sketch as the 'horizontal plane' and then use the same sketch but lable it 'vertical plane' (looking down from above) you will see the center line of trans and engine would be in center of car and the rear pinion would be offset to the right. This is what I ment by two planes, one being horizontal and the other being vertical. The horizontal can be 'adjusted' for correct angle by shimming as you state, but the vertical plane is fixed by pinion location either in center of rear end or off set to the right of centerline. C4's are offset to passenger side of centerline by1 inch and C1's are on the centerline. Using original C1 engine location and C4 IRS there is a 1 inch offset. Is this problematic as indicated by Drivelines NW?
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check this link out
http://www.tekatlarge.com/
click on ENTER about 1/2 way down on the right
then
click on the second link down AUTOMOBILES
then
Far right, second one down call DRIVELINE TEK TIPS
this might have your answer....I tried to post the link but it didnt work right, but this will get you there...
http://www.tekatlarge.com/
click on ENTER about 1/2 way down on the right
then
click on the second link down AUTOMOBILES
then
Far right, second one down call DRIVELINE TEK TIPS
this might have your answer....I tried to post the link but it didnt work right, but this will get you there...
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Firstgear. thanks for your imput. If you lable your sketch as the 'horizontal plane' and then use the same sketch but lable it 'vertical plane' (looking down from above) you will see the center line of trans and engine would be in center of car and the rear pinion would be offset to the right. This is what I ment by two planes, one being horizontal and the other being vertical. The horizontal can be 'adjusted' for correct angle by shimming as you state, but the vertical plane is fixed by pinion location either in center of rear end or off set to the right of centerline. C4's are offset to passenger side of centerline by1 inch and C1's are on the centerline. Using original C1 engine location and C4 IRS there is a 1 inch offset. Is this problematic as indicated by Drivelines NW?
Charles
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That's why, in the plan view, Corvette half-shafts are angled slightly forward (spindle centerlines designed slightly forward of the diff yoke centerlines) so the U-joints always run at a slight angle even if they're perfectly horizontal in the rear view.
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From: Going too fast over the hill. Iowa
the tangent of the 2° recommended ujoint limit is .0349
for a 1 inch offset (assuming the centerline of the dif and tailshaft are parrallel) the driveshaft needs to be at least 28.7 inches long.
how long is it ?
for a 1 inch offset (assuming the centerline of the dif and tailshaft are parrallel) the driveshaft needs to be at least 28.7 inches long.
how long is it ?
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That's not entirely true. If a U-joint runs at 0 degrees, it will brinell the needles, caps and trunnions; U-joints require at least some angular offset so there's constant movement between those parts.
That's why, in the plan view, Corvette half-shafts are angled slightly forward (spindle centerlines designed slightly forward of the diff yoke centerlines) so the U-joints always run at a slight angle even if they're perfectly horizontal in the rear view.
That's why, in the plan view, Corvette half-shafts are angled slightly forward (spindle centerlines designed slightly forward of the diff yoke centerlines) so the U-joints always run at a slight angle even if they're perfectly horizontal in the rear view.
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Tekatlarge 2150 Link changed
check this link out
http://www.tekatlarge.com
click on ENTER about 1/2 way down on the right
then
click on the second link down AUTOMOBILES
then
Far right, second one down call DRIVELINE TEK TIPS
this might have your answer....I tried to post the link but it didnt work right, but this will get you there...
http://www.tekatlarge.com
click on ENTER about 1/2 way down on the right
then
click on the second link down AUTOMOBILES
then
Far right, second one down call DRIVELINE TEK TIPS
this might have your answer....I tried to post the link but it didnt work right, but this will get you there...
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The Tek At Large
Last edited by tekatlarge; Oct 12, 2010 at 12:25 PM.
