Sudden Starting Problems
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 437
Likes: 104
From: Birmingham AL
AL Events Coordinator
Sudden Starting Problems
I fried the starter on my 327/300 about two months ago and purchased a cheap Rebuilt starter from Advance. It has been doing a fine job until this week when suddenly all I get is a grinding noise when I try to start the car. The car is tough to start when it has not been run for a few days and that is what happened this time. It turned over fine for about four tries and then on the fifth try all I got was this grinding noise. The starter has a shim under it so I removed that shim and put a thicker shim in and the result was the same. I took the starter off and Advance replaced it with a new starter, even after testing the original and found it to be operating properly. While the starter was off I looked at the flywheel and while not badly damaged I can see where the starter is hitting the flywheel as it tries to engage. When I installed the new starter I used a thicker shim with still the same problem. What else could be wrong causing the problem?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
Without a better definition of "grinding noise", I'd guess you have two bad starter drives on the starter. The motor is turning but the drive isn't engaging the flywheel.
If it turned over fine, with no noise four times with no noise, you trouble likely isn't related to shimming. But, it could be a worn spot on the ring gear. Try turning the engine by hand to roll the flywheel past the potential bad spot maybe a quarter turn and see if it starts. If that fixes your "grinding" problem, you likely have a worn ring gear.
Otherwise, a better definition of "grinding" would be helpful.
If it turned over fine, with no noise four times with no noise, you trouble likely isn't related to shimming. But, it could be a worn spot on the ring gear. Try turning the engine by hand to roll the flywheel past the potential bad spot maybe a quarter turn and see if it starts. If that fixes your "grinding" problem, you likely have a worn ring gear.
Otherwise, a better definition of "grinding" would be helpful.
Racer
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 317
Likes: 2
From: coral gables miami
By adding instead of removing the shims you increased the distance from the bad ring gear to the starter drive only making the condition worse...Most of the starters do NOT need shims...nothing wrong with the starter yet. But the ring gear will only continue to become more worn...as the engine will stop most of the time in the same place...Do what Mike suggested...You probably need a new $20.00 buck ring gear...easier said than done however as it [flywheel] has to come off the engine to replace on the flywheel
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 437
Likes: 104
From: Birmingham AL
AL Events Coordinator
I haven’t had to turn an engine by hand in a long time. As I remember there is a large nut on the front of the crankshaft (that holds the damper on) that I put a socket on and use the largest ratchet I can find. It turns clockwise (looking at the engine from the front of the car), right?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
I haven’t had to turn an engine by hand in a long time. As I remember there is a large nut on the front of the crankshaft (that holds the damper on) that I put a socket on and use the largest ratchet I can find. It turns clockwise (looking at the engine from the front of the car), right?
You can also grab the fan belt and roll the engine over.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
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Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 437
Likes: 104
From: Birmingham AL
AL Events Coordinator
I rotated the engine a few degrees (using the 9/16 nut on the center of the flywheel), removed the shim I had installed (which was actually a half shim to push the starter closer to the flywheel and not a full shim which would have push it further away) and the car started fine. Now I am happy but I am right back to where I was back in September when I fried the old starter and installed this new one that did not engage without the half shim. Maybe I did not have the starter positioned correctly when I tightened it originally but it is starting now and that’s fine with me. I have looked through the archives for a post about measuring starter clearance and cannot find anything. Can anyone point me to a procedure for checking the clearance? I would be willing to jack the car back up and check out the actual clearance that I have. Thanks for all the response on this.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
I rotated the engine a few degrees (using the 9/16 nut on the center of the flywheel), removed the shim I had installed (which was actually a half shim to push the starter closer to the flywheel and not a full shim which would have push it further away) and the car started fine. Now I am happy but I am right back to where I was back in September when I fried the old starter and installed this new one that did not engage without the half shim. Maybe I did not have the starter positioned correctly when I tightened it originally but it is starting now and that’s fine with me. I have looked through the archives for a post about measuring starter clearance and cannot find anything. Can anyone point me to a procedure for checking the clearance? I would be willing to jack the car back up and check out the actual clearance that I have. Thanks for all the response on this.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,671
Likes: 10
From: california
you can't. the bellhousing is in the way. back in the 70s we just bolted on chevy replacement starters to the block and they worked.
all pontiacs used shims, when replacing a starter on a goat, trans am or a 455 or early 421 we always cought the shims when the starter came out and put them back in with the rebuilt starter. the same starter motors were used on all GM cars. chevy cars never needed shims.
why did all the other GM cars need shims--i have no idea. but chevy starters always worked with no shims. this was back in the 70s.
now days, with all the chinese parts, anything can happen. just keep adding shims (you will be removing the starter gear teeth away from flywheel as you add shims. when you reach the proper clearance the starter motor will sound normal. you need to know how or you can fry your starter, ask DOKK, he has done the shim thing on his small block stroker, and it works.
all pontiacs used shims, when replacing a starter on a goat, trans am or a 455 or early 421 we always cought the shims when the starter came out and put them back in with the rebuilt starter. the same starter motors were used on all GM cars. chevy cars never needed shims.
why did all the other GM cars need shims--i have no idea. but chevy starters always worked with no shims. this was back in the 70s.
now days, with all the chinese parts, anything can happen. just keep adding shims (you will be removing the starter gear teeth away from flywheel as you add shims. when you reach the proper clearance the starter motor will sound normal. you need to know how or you can fry your starter, ask DOKK, he has done the shim thing on his small block stroker, and it works.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
you can't. the bellhousing is in the way. back in the 70s we just bolted on chevy replacement starters to the block and they worked.
all pontiacs used shims, when replacing a starter on a goat, trans am or a 455 or early 421 we always cought the shims when the starter came out and put them back in with the rebuilt starter. the same starter motors were used on all GM cars. chevy cars never needed shims.
why did all the other GM cars need shims--i have no idea. but chevy starters always worked with no shims. this was back in the 70s.
now days, with all the chinese parts, anything can happen. just keep adding shims (you will be removing the starter gear teeth away from flywheel as you add shims. when you reach the proper clearance the starter motor will sound normal. you need to know how or you can fry your starter, ask DOKK, he has done the shim thing on his small block stroker, and it works.
all pontiacs used shims, when replacing a starter on a goat, trans am or a 455 or early 421 we always cought the shims when the starter came out and put them back in with the rebuilt starter. the same starter motors were used on all GM cars. chevy cars never needed shims.
why did all the other GM cars need shims--i have no idea. but chevy starters always worked with no shims. this was back in the 70s.
now days, with all the chinese parts, anything can happen. just keep adding shims (you will be removing the starter gear teeth away from flywheel as you add shims. when you reach the proper clearance the starter motor will sound normal. you need to know how or you can fry your starter, ask DOKK, he has done the shim thing on his small block stroker, and it works.
I'm just curious where in the Pontiac assembly process it was determined a starter needed shims and how many. Since cars roll off the line far quicker than you can loosen a starter and shim it, it seems maybe more than a little disruptive to production.
Seems like it would behoove someone to either correct a quality problem or change a design.
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