RatDog

I've been doing a lot of reading about the history and evolution of the Corvette in anticipation of buying my first and trying to decide between C1 and C2 but something I haven't seen addressed is why a 409 c.i. was never offered.

"Back in the day" when I was a teenager, 409's were all the rage in the big Chevy's. I'm curious if anyone knows why GM never saw fit to offer this motor in the Corvette. Heck, GM sold 15,000 Chevy 409's in 1962. The Corvette seems like a natural for that engine. Was its physical size too large for a late c1 or early c2?

-- Steve

Bill Irwin

Steve, it's my understanding it was too heavy. Sure others will be in soon. Bill.

Dan Hampton

Duntov was always opposed to the use of the "W" engine in the Corvette, according to Ludvigsen's book the "Star Spangled Sports Car" The reason for that is probably two fold. First, it was basically a engine whose origins were meant for trucks. It was not a purposive performance engine (by design), having morphed from the 348 cid engine that was offered in passenger cars in '58.

Having been a product of European thinking (mostly Belgium via Russia), car engine displacement was dictated by government fiat and not by demand in the marketplace. Most European countries--post war--limited displacement to three liters (180 cid) because of limited oil resources which made petrol extremely expensive. That might account for "small displacement" thinking, early on, and sports cars, by nature, are weight averse and big bore sports cars were not the norm back then until Shelby arrived on the scene.

Ferrari, in the day, set the standard and most of their world beaters like the 250 GTO ruled the track with only 180 cubic inches. So, there is some historical precedence for wanting to stay with relatively small bore engines, although the 327 would be considered, by European standards, to be a large motor. To Duntov, it made more sense to extract more and more power out the SB (which he did in great fashion), keeping its weight in check for better handling, than to submit to a much heavier engine.

In the end, I think the power curve of history was against Corvette staying with the Turbo-Fire engines. The 60s, if anything, was about more power and the Turbo-Jet engines were part of that evolution. How Duntov felt about that, I do not know. I think the pinnacle of engine design for the Corvette were the Grand Sport motors with the 58 mm DCOE Webers on a cross ram. Exquisite looking and every bit as powerful as a BB.

Rusler John

I had a 65' Impala SS with a dual quad 425 h.p. 409 back in 1967. Boy, that car would scream! I truly loved it. But, then, I was infected with the "Vette Bug", totaly incurable. I still have great affection for the venerable "409". I'm still drawn to them, when I see them at cars shows.

gbvette62

I think that GM corporate regulations may have had something to do with it.

GM always set displacement limits for the various car lines. Delorean had to play some games to get the 389 in the 64 GTO. I don't remember exactly how it worked, but mid sized cars were limited to about 350 cu in. If I have the story right, Pontiac went ahead and built the GTO without corporate approval. By the time corporate figured out what they had done the GTO was selling so well, they couldn't do anything about it. After the success of the GTO, GM raised the displacement limit to around 400ci for mid sized lines. This is why the Chevelle never got the 427 (other than a handful of COPOs). It was 1970 before GM would eliminate the cubic inch restrictions.

I'm pretty sure the Corvette was under similar corporate restrictions.

scotty t

this guy thought it could/should be done

RatDog

Interesting stuff. I suppose the reason the 348 didn't make it into Corvettes follows along with the same explanations. And apparently the 396 only makes a showing one year (1965) because the 427 became available in 1966.

Duntov is a pretty intriguing guy. I never realized that if he had had it his way, there never would have been a split window in 63 and because of him, 1963 was the only year for the SWC.

Dan - Thanks for the lead on Ludvigsen's book. I'm building a library of Corvette books. I have about a dozen so far but I don't have that one. It's on my list now.

Take care,
-- Steve

Procrastination Racing

I saw one in a saddle '63 coupe in Lake Worth FL at a local show in '89. I didn't have my camera because we just happened on it while going to the store.

The fit was no different than any big block. Back in the early 70s, I saw plenty of 396s in '63s and '64s. A lot of people wanted more power, and there was no easier way than to drop a big block in one.

Remember that Duntov was a sports car RACER and DRIVER. He wanted a balanced machine that could take on any road course out there. Dropping a big block, W or Mark IV, added a lot of weight and changed to a F/R of 51/49 instead of the 48/52 or 49/51 of most small blocks.

However, most Americans think in terms of drag racing, not sports car racing, and turning left or right in a tight corner at speed was beyond them and meant little to them.

Chalky

Duntov was very concerned with weight. When he developed the GS Corvettes, he was offering them with 377 aluminum engines and hp approaching 500 HP if memory serves. His ultimate goal was to develop a mid engine Corvette. He got very close to ideal weight distribution with aluminum ZL1, something like 43% front, 57% rear.

From what I have read, once Cobra added the 427 and became A Production racers, GM needed a larger engine or Corvettes would have been relegated to B Production and never racing the big dog 427 Cobra in A Production.

RatDog

The Aerovette show car? A beautiful car! 400 c.i. small block mid-engine.

If Duntov, Cole, and Mitchell had not left, perhaps it would have made it into production.

-- Steve

Dan Hampton

No problem , Steve. Hope you can find one. It is a pretty good book but probably long out of print. He is a good author who has a impressive educational pedigree (Exeter, MIT, Pratt Institute).

GCD1962

A few friend in the 60s had 409s in their C-1 Corvettes. They were basically heavy slugs - not worth the effort.

jdk971

just a truck engine. i happen to like mine. the z11 was suppose to be pretty nice. today guys are putting 454 cranks in them and are getting
good power. jim

MikeM

Maybe the biggest reason Chevy didn't put the '09 in the Corvette was because they didn't need it. Even though this could be debated to death, the Corvette was just as fast or faster than anything else available up through '61 and as fast as most in '62. Furthermore, I don't think the '09 is a drop-in engine swap (I don't know this as I only saw one C-1 conversion long ago).

The following year, '63, Chevy had a new car and new engine. The StingRay and the Mk II BB. Assembly line compatible but the Mk II was canceled. Chevy even built of few of them to race.

So why mess with the '09 for just the '62 model year? It wouldn't have been worth the expense and time. The 348 definitely would have been a waste.

Dan Hampton

And... definitely not the competitive motor Duntov or anyone else was looking for, either.

sub006

Actually quite a few people put big blocks into C2s before mid-1965, when the first production 396 installation became available in the Corvette. They just didn't use Chevys!

Go through some of the smaller (mainly East Coast) hot rodding magazines, and you will find 406 and 427 Fords, 421 Pontiacs and 426 Hemis transplanted into '63-'65 Sting Rays for the strip, street racing or just kicks.

And I'm going to put MY favorite engine, a 1970 high-compression Cadillac 500, into my favorite car, the '64 I've owned for 43 years. It's actually lighter than an iron Chevy big block.

ps374

I think one reasn was there was no Cobra, and the Fuelie did very well as it was. Shelby put the big block in the Cobra so Chevy had to follow suit. By then the 409 was history.

Procrastination Racing

This kind of says it all.

Bill Irwin

Loved the T shirt, the Beach Boys would be proud. Bill

63Corvette

How 'bout this for a "reason"........Each 425HP/409 came with a "Warning" sticker (like the L88 103 RON sticker) which read: "This vehicle must not be run at full throttle for more than 10 seconds or engine damage will result".
JMHO