Hank

I have a 1966 roadster with a 502 and a 5-speed (kiesler o/d). I love the car, have had it 10 years.

I am trying to replace the starter, which died.

First I tried a napa rebuilt starter... the counter guy HAD to have an application, and there was nothing with a 502, so I got a starter for a 1970 big block. It looked exactly like the old starter, which had worked for 10 years.

When installed that starter, it made a fast "whirring" noise but the engine did not turn over. So I assumed, bendix is not engaging, wrong starter.

I went back and with the GM part number for a 502/502 starter, Napa was able to sell me an oem style gear reduction starter for the 502. It is smaller that the old starter and looks exactly like what the 502/502 comes with when I look at pictures online (GM P/N 10465167 - BBC Gear Reduction 168 Tooth 502/502 Starter, Remanufactured)

When I installed this smaller starter it makes the same fast "whirring" noise, and the engine doesn't turn over... so now I am really confused.

There were no shims in the system when I took the old starter off. and Napa has made off with my original (cores got swept away before I figured out that the replacement didn't fit).

Ideas?

Is there any way that putting the electrical wires in the wrong places causes this? I know it's not that complicated but I'm sorta stuck.

Thank you so much!

Hank

knockbill

you're not missing teeth off teh flywheel, are you?

Hank

No, the flywheel is fine. A couple years old. It started 100% fine with the old starter till the starter gave out. The problem is in the starter or its installation somehow.

Hank

Ironcross

this is exactly whats wrong and the mini GM starter is correct but so is the first starter as a OE starter for a 1970 454......its not a shim issue as shims would make it worse, the ring gear is 'dead

Engines normally stop in the same position and only a tiny part/piece of it is ever used....Sounds strange, but true

MikeM

What first came to my mind is the ring gear on the flywheel has come loose and is slipping on the flywheel when the starter drive engages. It can spin the ring gear but if it slips, it won't spin the engine. Common on aluminum flywheels of old.

It can also be teeth missing on the flywheel as noted. You can discount this if you rock the car a little, in gear to move the flywheel teeth differently in relation to the starter. Rock the car in gear and then hit the key to start.

I can't think of any way you could cross up the wires and get this symptom. Don't discount loose or faulty wiring to the starter. The purple wire coming to the solenoid is the one that actuates the solenoid. It should be wired to the small terminal next to the the block.

AZDoug

If you have a 153 tooth flywheel,and the starter was for a 168 tooth flywheel, you won't get engagement.

As far as application for the 153 tooth flywheel, a 1967 427/435 will work for full size starter, as will a 1990 Corvette for a smaller gear reduction starter.

454 flywheels, from factory, most if not all used the larger 168 tooth flywheel.

Doug

plaidside

There where two big block starters in those years. One is for automatic and a different one for manual trans.
Do you still have the old one? If so you could send me some pics and I will try to identify it. Also you could send me the NAPA numbers off the starter boxes they gave you and I will try and identify the starter you need.
I do a lot of this at my store for my customers.
Joe

Hank

Thanks everyone for the ideas.

1) the starter that used to work is now lost to napa's core-exchange system. I did not realize the replacement isn't working until too late. oops. won't do that again. and next time will take pics.

2) the larger old (1960s) style replacement starter they sold me is Napa p/n 246-1091.

3) the "newer style 502 type" gear reduction starter they sold me is the rebuilt version of GM p/n 09000852 - "BBC Gear Reduction 168 Tooth 502/502 Starter, BRAND NEW. Factory Style, for large 14” 168 tooth flywheels"

I did write down some numbers off the side of the old starter (1107 777 and OD 26 and 3676) but I can't find anything in delco-remy that matches to those numbers.

I will be surprised if it's a flywheel problem, simply b/c the whole thing worked perfectly until I removed the old starter, and also b/c I installed the steel 168 tooth flywheel myself a couple thousand miles ago and it was new from the box when I put it in.

I very well may have mis-connected a wire at the solenoid (?), but I don't understand why that would cause this problem... but then again I don't understand the problem, either.

Hank

plaidside

Hank,
I will not be back in my store util Monday.
Do you have a manual or auto trans?
In the first post you stated GM P/N 10465167, and in the second post you said GM p/n 09000852.
Joe

Dan Hampton

Have you ever considered taking the old starter to a local rebuilder? Even in our small area, we have some excellent shops who do a quality job at half the "rebuild" price.

Vogie

The GMPP catalog should have a components list in the section describing the ZZ502 or at least it did when I bought one years ago. Or you could go to GMPartsDirect.com or Scoggins-Dickey Chevrolet. Good luck.

Hank

Joe,

I have a manual trans. With a large and relatively new steel flywheel.

On the part numbers, sorry for the confusion. p/n 10465167 is simply GM's remanfactured version of the starter, and 09000852 is the new version of the item. They are the same starter, one reman and one new. And Sallee, Scroggin-Dickey, and other sources list that exact starter as the one that comes on the 502/502 crate engines.

Thank you,

Gerry

dconlon19

hank ....set that starter up on your bench. apply a dc source (battery charger , jumper cables whatever . make sure you can actually see solenoid and bendix engaging properly. just because its new does not mean its ok . your wiring question may be valid. when this new starter performs to your liking,move on to teeth and ring gear solutions...just trying to eliminate some foot work.dc

427Hotrod

Try turning the motor by hand with a wrench on the balancer bolt to get it to a new position then try it. If the flywheel happens to have a bad spot you will then be in a new spot where it is good.

One other thing that isn't causing this issue probably, but the bolts for the GM mini starters are a little different (metric) and you might need the correct retrofit bolts to position the starter properly. Again, probably not this issue, but a long term chance of busting bolts off when the starter wiggles around on them.

As mentioned, check it with some jumper cables on a bench. Make sure the bendix fully extends.

Wiring for these should be just the one little purple wire to the inside stud on the solenoid. The big wires to the main stud and you leave the other little wire unhooked that went to the little outside stud on the solenoid unless you're still running stock points distributor.


JIM

knockbill

he doesn't have the old starter,, it went back for core,,,

i agree with bench testing it,,, make sure teh bendix is extending far enough to engage teh flywheel,

i never give back teh core until i'm convinced teh "new" part works like it should,,,usually a week or so...

BADBIRDCAGE

If the starter is "whirring" and not turning the motor over you do not have engagement of the drive with the flywheel. Could be the solenoid is not working correctly.

Rich

Hank

Small update for what its worth:

I turned the engine 1/4 turn by hand with a wrench and the starter still whirrs... so the problem is not related to a bad spot on the ring gear.

I am travelling and have not had a chance to bench test the starter/solenoid with 12v power yet.

Hank

larrywalk

Most likely, the new starter is fine, however, it's not the right one as it sounds like you have a 153 tooth flywheel (12 7/8" diameter vs 14" diameter for the 168 tooth). If you recall the bolt arrangement with the previous starter, you can confirm which flywheel you have...

If the 2 previous starter bolts were different lengths and were inline, you have a 153 tooth flywheel; alternately, if both bolts were the same length and were staggered, you have the 168 tooth flywheel. As an exception, if the previous starter was a gear reduction starter, it may have 2 pairs of inline bolt holes which could be used for either flywheel.

Hank

Update

Still stuck

I bench tested the new starter, and the little starter gear does jump out as it should when the starter motor whirrs up.

I double checked my engine assembly notebook and I installed an 11" clutch and I am really pretty sure I have a 14inch, 168 tooth flysheel. The starter I took off had staggered bolts (and two bolts same length) also suggesting 168 tooth flywheel.

I guess I could try a 3rd starter (153 tooth style) but that would truly be an act of desperation.

Hank

larrywalk

Why don't you measure? With a large 168 tooth flywheel or flexplate, it is 1 1/8" from the inner edge of the outer starter bolt hole in the block to the outer edge of the teeth on the flywheel (measure perpendicular to the crankshaft centerline, not diagonally from the bolt hole edge to the teeth). A small diameter flywheel will measure ~1 3/4".

Hope this helps; let us know what you find.