ready to take a sledge hammer to a 1959 283
08-10-2011, 10:55 PM
#41
Instructor
Thread Starter
I concur with...
I am not a smart guy, but this engine is as simple as it gets, fire, fuel and air it should start.
08-10-2011, 11:52 PM
#43
Instructor
Thread Starter
To clear things up, I AM THE BUILDER. I did have a machine shop do the heads for me and the cylinders, but other than that I did the rest.
Also, not to sound like a Jack ***, but before you comment please read all of the post. I seem to be reading recommendations on things that I have already tried and explained.
Also, not to sound like a Jack ***, but before you comment please read all of the post. I seem to be reading recommendations on things that I have already tried and explained.
08-11-2011, 12:46 AM
#44
Team Owner
shim the starter?
correct HEAD on starter?
I see you checked for Pressure in the cylinders...but for my knowledge...what would cause back pressure?
I also don't want to be a smart ***...but...you said it ran and then you shut it down but it wont start and is puts a strain in the starter/battery.
now my question/suggestion...and don't take this wrong beings you are the builder.
Did you put in the shaft from the oil pump to distributor?
You know what happens when it is missing.
correct HEAD on starter?
I see you checked for Pressure in the cylinders...but for my knowledge...what would cause back pressure?
I also don't want to be a smart ***...but...you said it ran and then you shut it down but it wont start and is puts a strain in the starter/battery.
now my question/suggestion...and don't take this wrong beings you are the builder.
Did you put in the shaft from the oil pump to distributor?
You know what happens when it is missing.
Last edited by 66jack; 08-11-2011 at 01:16 AM.
08-11-2011, 01:18 AM
#45
Melting Slicks
I rebuilt a 289 one time and put it back in the car and couldn't get it to run no matter what I tried. Finally pulled the head pipes and it started right up and ran perfect. The head pipes were double wall and the inner walls were corroded and collapsed and sealed them tight so exhaust couldn't exit. Unlikely but just a thought.
08-11-2011, 01:18 AM
#46
Instructor
Thread Starter
Shims?
OK, what would make a shim on the starter make a difference? The engine turned over just fine before and after two of the starts. Not to mention all of the times I cranked it over before it started. BTW, it cranked over just fine before the slow start. So, why all of a sudden would the third start be effected by a shim issue?
Last edited by Treetopflyer; 08-11-2011 at 01:24 AM.
08-11-2011, 01:36 AM
#48
Team Owner
Member Since: Aug 2008
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 31,358
Received 5,010 Likes
on
2,529 Posts
St. Jude Donor '09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-‘19-'20-'21-'22-'23-'24
I think it's a lost cause. What day is your trash pickup? Just leave it curbside with the key and title inside and I'll recycle it for you. 
The two most popular votes here seem to be a bearing issue or electrical/starter. Obviously SOMETHING either changed, or was getting ready to give you a problem when you last shut it off. If it was me, at this point I'd start with backing off the rockers and seeing if it spins freely with the plugs out. If so, you can concentrate on all the electrical possibilities. If not, you have to go in a whole different direction.
The two most popular votes here seem to be a bearing issue or electrical/starter. Obviously SOMETHING either changed, or was getting ready to give you a problem when you last shut it off. If it was me, at this point I'd start with backing off the rockers and seeing if it spins freely with the plugs out. If so, you can concentrate on all the electrical possibilities. If not, you have to go in a whole different direction.
08-11-2011, 01:53 AM
#49
Le Mans Master
Tree Top Flyer, you pulled the plugs and it did not turn by hand, did you turn it with the plugs out with the starter? How did that go.
I see no reason to back off the rocker arms, if they were tight the valves would be hung open letting this engine turn with less drag not more drag.
When trying to start a engine that has very high resistance or drag the starter and Battery cable should get very hot, very fast. IF they are not heating up from the huge load of turning a stuck engine the engine is not stuck. You have an electrical problem.
Most likely grounds. Are these grounds bolted to a freshly painted bell housing?
Paint can insulate pretty well.
I see no reason to back off the rocker arms, if they were tight the valves would be hung open letting this engine turn with less drag not more drag.
When trying to start a engine that has very high resistance or drag the starter and Battery cable should get very hot, very fast. IF they are not heating up from the huge load of turning a stuck engine the engine is not stuck. You have an electrical problem.
Most likely grounds. Are these grounds bolted to a freshly painted bell housing?
Paint can insulate pretty well.
08-11-2011, 02:03 AM
#50
Instructor
Thread Starter
YES, the ground is bolted to a painted bell housing. BUT again I revert back to, it started just fine before the problem and several times before that.
YES, I turned it over with the plugs out and it reacted the same way, slow and then slowly stopped, like the battery went dead.
I am guessing an electrical problem at this point, BUT where is said problem? I am certain that it is not the ground. This system is as simple as it gets, so why, why, why can I not figure this out?
YES, I turned it over with the plugs out and it reacted the same way, slow and then slowly stopped, like the battery went dead.
I am guessing an electrical problem at this point, BUT where is said problem? I am certain that it is not the ground. This system is as simple as it gets, so why, why, why can I not figure this out?
08-11-2011, 02:22 AM
#51
Team Owner
Start with the Ign. switch first if you think it is electrical...
08-11-2011, 02:56 AM
#52
Le Mans Master
If the electrical load is too high the wires would get hot fast when you turn the key.
If the wireing does not heat up you have no load and need to find the missing ground or hot wire.
If it is internal, crank or bearing issue that is a new set of inspections.
Is there a large electrical draw, causing the battery cables to warm quickly or get hot when attempting to start?
If the wireing does not heat up you have no load and need to find the missing ground or hot wire.
If it is internal, crank or bearing issue that is a new set of inspections.
Is there a large electrical draw, causing the battery cables to warm quickly or get hot when attempting to start?
08-11-2011, 08:57 AM
#54
Drifting
repro battery cables? cable integrity
Are the battery cables repro or standard replacement?
Not unheard of to get a bad repro cable.
Timing?
I sympathize with you.
Couldn't get my 327 to start when I was a youth. Engine spun had sprk and fuel, dam thing wouldn't fire. I had everything apart at least twice. Finally discovered it was the spark plugs. Had some champ UJ12s or UJ12Ys, don't remember which, but when I put in the a set of accel plugs the darn car fired and ran beautifully. I still need therapy to recover from that nightmare. Not suggesting that is your problem but electrical gremlins take many different forms.
Not unheard of to get a bad repro cable.
Timing?
I sympathize with you.
Couldn't get my 327 to start when I was a youth. Engine spun had sprk and fuel, dam thing wouldn't fire. I had everything apart at least twice. Finally discovered it was the spark plugs. Had some champ UJ12s or UJ12Ys, don't remember which, but when I put in the a set of accel plugs the darn car fired and ran beautifully. I still need therapy to recover from that nightmare. Not suggesting that is your problem but electrical gremlins take many different forms.
08-11-2011, 09:11 AM
#55
Treetopflyer
It seems to me that there is sufficient information here to draw a couple conclusions.
You said the slow cranking speed was the same with the spark plugs installed and with the plugs removed. Removing the plugs eliminates maybe 75% of the load on the starter. If this were an electrical problem, like a corroded connection, bad crimp, something like that, I would expect to see some change in the cranking speed with the plugs removed. A small resistance in the starter circuit will cause a fully loaded starter motor to spin slowly. By unloading the starter you should have seen at least some increase in cranking speed.
If, when you remove the plugs, which removes a high percentage of the load on the starter, and the starter does not crank the motor any faster, can we conclude that removing the plugs did NOT remove a high percentage of the load on the starter? Is there an internal problem causing a load on the starter that is much greater than the compression load installing the plugs would cause?
Seems to me we need to know for sure how easy it is for you to spin the motor manually either from the crank bolt or from the flywheel. Doesn't really matter that it worked well the last time it ran. With the plugs pulled it should be pretty easy.
CUL Jim
It seems to me that there is sufficient information here to draw a couple conclusions.
You said the slow cranking speed was the same with the spark plugs installed and with the plugs removed. Removing the plugs eliminates maybe 75% of the load on the starter. If this were an electrical problem, like a corroded connection, bad crimp, something like that, I would expect to see some change in the cranking speed with the plugs removed. A small resistance in the starter circuit will cause a fully loaded starter motor to spin slowly. By unloading the starter you should have seen at least some increase in cranking speed.
If, when you remove the plugs, which removes a high percentage of the load on the starter, and the starter does not crank the motor any faster, can we conclude that removing the plugs did NOT remove a high percentage of the load on the starter? Is there an internal problem causing a load on the starter that is much greater than the compression load installing the plugs would cause?
Seems to me we need to know for sure how easy it is for you to spin the motor manually either from the crank bolt or from the flywheel. Doesn't really matter that it worked well the last time it ran. With the plugs pulled it should be pretty easy.
CUL Jim
08-11-2011, 09:53 AM
#56
Team Owner
Member Since: Aug 2008
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 31,358
Received 5,010 Likes
on
2,529 Posts
St. Jude Donor '09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-‘19-'20-'21-'22-'23-'24
Good logic! 
08-11-2011, 10:08 AM
#57
Drifting
I have read through the entire post and find this problem very interesting. Based on what you have done, if it were sitting in my garage I would do the following in order (I know some are repeats, but this is what I would do, in my garage)
First thing I would do is work to rule out any sort of mechanical issue. No sense in trying to get the starter to spin if the engine is binding.
1. Remove all rockers and pushrods
2. Remove plugs
3. Turn engine over by hand, either with a flywheel turning tool or manually with the front balancer. It should spin freely and easily throughout each rotation. Any sort of binding is cause for deeper investigation. Remember when you assembled the engine and how easily the crank spun when the mains were torqued with no pistons installed? Then as each piston was installed, due to the friction of the rings, it got progressively harder to turn? It should feel like it did when you were doing assembly and had all 8 pistons installed.
4. If all that goes well, start installing and adjusting rockers one cylinder at a time.
5. If all of that goes well we can now assume that there is no binding within the internal rotating assembly as we now have pistons and valves working.
6. Time to start playing with the starter. At this point you have no plugs installed and all of the valves adjusted per the cam manufacturers specs. Try to crank the engine using the starter. It should spin freely as long as the starter is engaged. Let's assume it doesn't similar to what you have seen.
7. Four things need to be in place in order for the starter to work as designed. One, you need a good, low resistance voltage path to the starter. Two you need a good low resistance return path (ground). Third you need a good starter and fourth you need a good battery.
8. The positive connection from the battery to the starter should be secure and free of grease / dirt / corrosion. Take an emery cloth or scotch brite to each connectection to be sure.
9. The return cable (ground) should go directly from the battery to the engine block right at the starter mount (at least it does on my 60). Verify the connection at the block is clean from any paint prior to making the connection.
10. With the power connected the starter should crank. Let's say it still behaves the same way, turns a bit then dies out. You could very well have a defective starter. Bench testing a starter vs load testing a starter are two very different things. I used to have a 9 second Camaro. We drove it from the pits to the staging lanes for our third run of the day. Parked the car to wait for our lane to be called. When called, we tried to start the car, wouldn't crank but a rotation or so. I ran back to the pit and took the battery out of the tow vehicle. Installed a fresh battery, hit start and proceeded to fry the wiring to the starter. No more racing that day. Found out that the armature in the starter shorted causing it to malfunction. It was an new custom built starter with maybe 6 starts on it. Long story short, if you have another starter, try it. If not I would suggest buying or borrowing one.
11. Connect a volt meter from the starter power terminal to ground. You should see the voltage drop a few volts under normal cranking. This is due to the voltage drop in the power wire due to the current being drawn by the starter. If it drops a lot, there is excessive current draw pointing to the starter having issues and needs to be replaced. Remember, at this point we have no plugs installed so the distributor or timing is not in play at this time.
If you are still having issues after doing all of this........... I need to do some more thinking. This would ba a good time for a break.
Tom
First thing I would do is work to rule out any sort of mechanical issue. No sense in trying to get the starter to spin if the engine is binding.
1. Remove all rockers and pushrods
2. Remove plugs
3. Turn engine over by hand, either with a flywheel turning tool or manually with the front balancer. It should spin freely and easily throughout each rotation. Any sort of binding is cause for deeper investigation. Remember when you assembled the engine and how easily the crank spun when the mains were torqued with no pistons installed? Then as each piston was installed, due to the friction of the rings, it got progressively harder to turn? It should feel like it did when you were doing assembly and had all 8 pistons installed.
4. If all that goes well, start installing and adjusting rockers one cylinder at a time.
5. If all of that goes well we can now assume that there is no binding within the internal rotating assembly as we now have pistons and valves working.
6. Time to start playing with the starter. At this point you have no plugs installed and all of the valves adjusted per the cam manufacturers specs. Try to crank the engine using the starter. It should spin freely as long as the starter is engaged. Let's assume it doesn't similar to what you have seen.
7. Four things need to be in place in order for the starter to work as designed. One, you need a good, low resistance voltage path to the starter. Two you need a good low resistance return path (ground). Third you need a good starter and fourth you need a good battery.
8. The positive connection from the battery to the starter should be secure and free of grease / dirt / corrosion. Take an emery cloth or scotch brite to each connectection to be sure.
9. The return cable (ground) should go directly from the battery to the engine block right at the starter mount (at least it does on my 60). Verify the connection at the block is clean from any paint prior to making the connection.
10. With the power connected the starter should crank. Let's say it still behaves the same way, turns a bit then dies out. You could very well have a defective starter. Bench testing a starter vs load testing a starter are two very different things. I used to have a 9 second Camaro. We drove it from the pits to the staging lanes for our third run of the day. Parked the car to wait for our lane to be called. When called, we tried to start the car, wouldn't crank but a rotation or so. I ran back to the pit and took the battery out of the tow vehicle. Installed a fresh battery, hit start and proceeded to fry the wiring to the starter. No more racing that day. Found out that the armature in the starter shorted causing it to malfunction. It was an new custom built starter with maybe 6 starts on it. Long story short, if you have another starter, try it. If not I would suggest buying or borrowing one.
11. Connect a volt meter from the starter power terminal to ground. You should see the voltage drop a few volts under normal cranking. This is due to the voltage drop in the power wire due to the current being drawn by the starter. If it drops a lot, there is excessive current draw pointing to the starter having issues and needs to be replaced. Remember, at this point we have no plugs installed so the distributor or timing is not in play at this time.
If you are still having issues after doing all of this........... I need to do some more thinking. This would ba a good time for a break.
Tom
08-11-2011, 12:26 PM
#58
If you can't grab the fan and turn the engine, it's spun a bearing and seized up. So you did the engine yourself? What were your clearances on rod journals and mains?
Also, someone asked you to check the oil for debris, I did not see a reply to that.
Also, someone asked you to check the oil for debris, I did not see a reply to that.
08-11-2011, 12:32 PM
#59
Le Mans Master
08-11-2011, 01:39 PM
#60
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Greenville, Indiana
Posts: 26,118
Received 1,843 Likes
on
1,398 Posts
