Kyle_25

New poster, long-time follower of the forums here.

I'm putting a Borgeson steering box in my 1964 Corvette. It is a driver street car (non-original, semi resto-mod, not looking for NCRS competition). I was hoping someone could help me with the (incredibly frustrating) problems I'm having with my Borgeson steering box installation (part #800108)...

http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/produc...productid=1520

Upon initial installation, I noticed the steering box shaft was not on the same plane as the steering column shaft. In fact, it really wasn't even close. I figured I had two ways to help it in the right direction- shim the box, or open up the firewall aperture. Not wanting to shim the box, I first opened up the firewall aperture about 1/8" (the hole is covered anyway so a little relief will never even be seen). It did help it in the right direction, but not nearly enough. My frame was straightened by a well-known Corvette frame fixer with a good jig that has been used hundreds of times. I figured it was safe to assume my frame is straight and that is not the problem. Thus I threw out the steering box shim idea (plus it just looks so Mickey Mouse).

Only upon removing the box and comparing it to my original box did I discover the problem...

First things first- I could probably use a U joint (as they allow me to make up for the terrible steering angle I'm experiencing) in place of the supplied rag joint but:

1. I don't feel like I should have to. Borgeson supplied the rag joint and thus I feel like it should work (I mean, they do test and R & D these products, don't they?).

2. I like the dampening of road vibration I get from a rag joint. My car is a STREET car, and only a street car. I want it to drive comfortably.

3. I DO NOT want to run a rack and pinion setup adapted from some other car. I have had nothing but problems with compromises like this (on Corvettes AND other vintage cars) and I simply will not do it again. Period.

That being said, I took my factory box and compared it to the Borgeson unit.

Using a simple protractor, I noticed the two boxes are way off in terms of mounting flange angle. It was not only obvious, but painfully obvious. Frustrated, I called them, then took pictures and sent them to Borgeson. I sent them last Thursday. Since they never called back, I called them today. Their response was less than ideal. They recognized and noticed the (painfully) obvious problem in the pictures I sent. They had no response as to why their box doesn't mirror factory steering box mounting dimensions.

I told them right off the bat that I did not want to use a U joint. If I needed one (and there was no way around it), why wasn't it supplied to begin with? They said they have had to shim some steering boxes before. I reluctantly shimmed mine. Unfortunately, it STILL doesn't make up the difference. They said I could send it back, but that the new box would be exactly the same (as their jig, "cannot be welded incorrectly"). The only way I would be able to make mine work (based on my observations) is to:

1. Use a U joint (Which I don't want to/shouldn't have to do).
2. Elongate the steering box holes (in the frame) so the box can tilt (BEYOND UNSAFE AND UNACCEPTABLE).
3. Get a new steering box from a different supplier (which I DON'T want to do).


Please help! Based on the pictures I have, it just doesn't make sense. Borgeson's basic answer is, "send it back for a new one or a refund". Am I missing something? I mean, all it takes is a simple protractor to see the problem...

In the pictures you will find the Borgeson box compared to my factory steering box. I think the pictures (hopefully) will speak for themselves.


Also, this is my first time posting and attaching pictures. Please let me know if something doesn't work, or if I need to explain anything further.


Thanks in advance for reading and helping.

Kyle

66since71

Second and last pictures tell it pretty clearly. Interested in their response. Have they seen the pictures? (You're right, by the way. There's nothing subtile about the mis-match.)

Harry

larrywalk

There's more at risk here than just a mismatch of the input and steering shafts - the pitman arm angle will be changed also which will change steering geometry.

IMO, they need to take it back and send you one that matches your stock box - your steering box is stock, is it not?

Kyle_25

My original steering box is stock, and I have three other stock ones to verify it against. Borgeson tech has seen the photos and I'm unhappy with their response (tech guy). I will try and call an engineer tomorrow and say WTF?

I can't imagine they are all like this. I'm hoping someone sent me the wrong application box. Or welded the mounting flange on wrong (even though the tech guy told me this was impossible). I'm trying to keep giving them the benefit of the doubt...

davewh

I installed one of their units in my 67 and the only problems I had was making the bend in the return hose in cold weather. Everything was fine. If I had to guess it would be the wrong application.
Works great and was a good addition.

Kyle_25

Update 6:00 PM- Went through and checked my Borgeson box against pictures of the Borgeson box on their website. They look to be the same. Instructions/rag joint they included is all correct for part #800108. Also, I bought my box direct from Borgeson.

davewh- did you use the included rag joint or did you use a U joint? Yes, I noticed that it impacted a brake line, so I had to bend my existing line to fit (stainless brake lines suck for this). I figured the tech guy would instantly notice if I had the wrong application steering box, but he didn't say a word. Plan is still to call Borgeson and try to talk to an engineer tomorrow. Thanks for the help from all responders!

5thvet

Wow, there have been a lot of conversions done by Forum members and I had never heard of this problem. It will be interesting to see what they have to say about it. They must have sent the wrong part??

67*427

FWIW, I installed the Borgeson box in my '67 and everything lined up perfectly. Sure sounds like the wrong box from them.

sd

vt65

sorry to hear about your problem Kyle, I installed a Borg. box last year on my '65 and it fit great, I'll be interested to see what the fix is for you...I suspect you got the wrong box sent to you, don't see what else it could be. If it were me i'd get them to send another one.

davewh

I used the rag joint from Borgeson.

TexVette66

I install a Borgeson box purchased direct from Borgeson,used thier rag joint,everything fit great,performs great,did not even think to compare the orginal bow and the new one.

tracdogg2

If you look close at both boxes it's quite obvious on the borgeson box the mounting plate had shifted at the time of welding. Just a simple mistake that can happen at any company. I've dealt with these guys in person and they have gone to great expense to make a fine box.
Explain to them what the actual problem is. Mis-alignment during welding. I'm sure they will take care of you.
Mike

66since71

I'm a big supporter of businesses that work to make products available to the small market we represent. That said... If the plate shifted during welding, the weld fixture or its maintenance is TERRIBLE! The industry hasn't made fixtures that poorly designed in 30+ years.

I asked earlier in this thread about Borgesons response to this problem because it will speak volumes to the quality of their design and process...

Harry

Kyle_25

Update 8/25/11-
Borgeson has seen these pictures and many more. I went through two tech guys because I was unhappy with the response of the first. The response of the second guy is the same as the first. I'll try to summarize what they think:

1. These boxes have been installed in hundreds of cars, so there's clearly something wrong with my car.
2. The Borgeson box is NOT supposed to mirror factory dimensions, as it is a different box and it was engineered that way (though I can't talk to the engineer that designed it).
3. There is nothing wrong with the box they supplied.
4. I did something wrong, it's my fault- and I'm trying to make them look bad.

Needless to say, I'm fairly unhappy with the response. I used an angle finding level to check the difference in steering box angle to the stock one (while installed). The Borgeson box steering shaft leaves the box at a 9-10 degree angle. The stock box is 16-17 degrees. This is the biggest and most important difference between the two boxes. Borgeson says the difference is intentional, and was engineered to be this way. I know it must sound ridiculous (I have the e-mails and phone records to prove it), but they claim this was all engineered this way intentionally (but I can't talk to the engineer that designed it).

Sooooooo............ I figured it was time to just say screw them and do what I can. I opened the firewall aperture, shimmed the box, trimmed the column further and put it all back together. Now the steering angle difference is the only thing stopping me from a prefect installation. And that difference is intentional (according to Borgeson).

My last conversation with them involved them suggesting a vibration-dampening U-joint to use in place of the supplied rag joint. With the 6-8 degree difference between the steering box shaft and the column shaft, it will surely eat rag joints quickly. I guess the suggested U-joint is my last option. I am unhappy (naturally). Thoughts/comments/suggestions greatly appreciated.

Kyle_25

As you can see in these pictures, I'm pretty close. Unfortunately, the column has a fixed mount. This means I cant possibly change the column shaft angle (up or down). This is what Borgeson won't recognize. The shaft angle MUST stay the same as a factory box. Period.

Opening up the firewall aperture/shimming the box fixed the horizontal angle problem. The vertical angle is still FUBAR. By 6-8 degrees. Tough to get a picture of this but here you go (sorry real camera is gone, phone has to suffice): Last picture shows it best....

firstgear

Wow, that is begging for an universal joint......if that is what you have to live with, that would mean something needs to machined shorter.....ugh!

Or


I would be tempted to take the unit out, and make a new ear in the right place and reweld.....however before I did that, I would call the supplier back and ask for the president of the company, when they want to know why or topic I would tell them that I have been unable to get satisfaction at tech support, that I have gone on Corvette forum to ask for help with lots of photos and I would like to give someone at the company one last chance to help me with this problem as many of the forum members have bought and many more might buy, but perhaps my experience might sway them differently. I need someone that cares about the business impact to talk to about my problem. You need to get to the owner or president of the company.

427Hotrod

Borgeson folks ck in here regularly so I expect they will get involved and help you out. Jeff is great to deal with and I'm sure there is an answer somewhere.

I'm assuming you pulled the column out when you cut it....or not? The reason I ask is there is quite a lot of adjustment in the underdash bracket.

Here's a couple of pics I have from my install. I used a universal because I needed it to clear my header tube...but the flex coupler lined up fine too. For what it's worth...I don't detect any harshness through the column at all from the u-joint.

JIM

chet b

I used kit #999016 on my 64. No problems with the install. Works great. They should be able to get You the right assembly. Alignment was right on. I had the alignment checked. Everything else lined up properly. My car started out with a frame off restoration. Maybe they sent You the wrong assembly?

6T7L71CPE

What is the cars history? If it was wrecked, maybe the cabin section isn't up to factory specs and not aligned with the frame. Just a thought.

66since71

Like Yogi B used to say, you can observe a lot just by looking....

Opened my hood, and its fairly clear that the Borgeson box, correctly bracketed, would have hard interference with the frame, vehicle forward of the pitman arm shaft. I think they tilted it upright to gain the clearance. There is plenty of motion available in the stock steering linkage to accommodate the changed plane for movement of the pitman arm. The geometry is going to be a little wacky because the idler arm shaft axis is the old one.

Why they didn't just tell you that is beyond me. Could be it is a little "Bubba fixed". It's certainly not engineered.

Harry