another thread mentioned the use of E85 in an aftermarket EFI conversion so i decided to create a new thread to specifically address this question.

can you use E85 for any EFI system that is not designed specifically for it? (i have an ACCEL Thruster system)

2 thoughts;
1) the materials in a non-E85 systems (seals, lines, etc) may not be compatible with 85% vs 10% alcohol

2) the control system (ECM, O2 sensor, etc) may not be able to adjust that much.

on my recent trip i ran across a station that had E85 so i put about 7 gallons in my 15 gallon tank to top off the remainder of the E10 already in the tank. the car ran with no noticeable different at cruising speeds on the interstate and at the next fuel-up after about 200 miles i topped off with E10.

no apparent problems then or now, but a friend said that it was a bad idea to use E85 in a non-E85 vehicle for the reasons i stated above.

thoughts?
Bill

 

Much like pounding a square peg into a round hole this conversion can be done with sufficient pain and effort, but what would you gain?

 

Corrosive

Ethanol corrodes a number of materials, including plastic, fiberglass and other parts of the engine. Corrosion will either contaminate the fuel or destroy parts of the engine, such as the fuel line. However, this doesn't apply to cars that are designed to run on E85. These vehicles are built with materials that ethanol won't corrode. That being said, it's a factor to consider if you plan to convert your own vehicle to E85. To complete the conversion process, you'll need to replace any plastic or rubber engine parts, such as seals and hose lines, that the E85 comes into contact with. Many of the seals you'll need to replace are part of the engine block itself, making the conversion both difficult and expensive.

A hose or injector is not necessarily rated for E85, just because it is rated for E10. In fact the manufacturers have balked at the President's "suggestion" just to increase the Ethanol proportion up to E15.

Recommend you contact Accel for their comments.

http://www.ehow.com/info_8109728_problems-e85-fuel.html

 

John
as you are aware, the only ACCEL supplied parts of consequence are the ECM, the distributor and control box, and the O2 box; all other parts are aftermarket or OEM.

the only parts that would have to be 'specialized' that are in some way associated with the fuel are the tank, submerged fuel pump, injectors, pressure control valve and the O2 sensor.

so, i guess, are these items 'special'...
Bill

 

Yes, they are, and so is the in-line sensor that reports the exact ethanol concentration in real time to the ECM.

 

I was referring to calling Accel to ask if the ECM can accommodate the drastic change in air-fuel ratio needed.

Another question is if the the injectors have sufficient flow (if you ever went full throttle). That can be done separately, but still would be good to know....if you remember what size injectors you have.

John

 

Bill,
I work for a fuel injector manufacturer; we make millions of electronic injectors per year so there’s plenty of fuel injector expertise around. Seems you have a good handle on the items that will be affected by the increased ethanol such as the tank, lines, etc. However, since it will be nearly impossible to always fill up with E85 you really need a system what will function with percentages of ethanol ranging from 0% to 85%. Modern OE systems take care of this by using a sensor that determines the percent of ethanol in the fuel that the vehicle is using, higher flow injectors and an ECU that can calculate fuel flow based on the normal variables plus the percentage of ethanol in the fuel.
I’m not sure what your plan is, are you going to use an aftermarket system or something off a newer vehicle? If you are going the OE route I think you have shot at getting this to work. There would be some adapting to do and maybe some reprogramming but it’s doable. If you plan on going aftermarket you need to be close, personal friends with one (or more) of the technicians and/or engineers at the vendor.
In any case, I hope you get this to work, is a very cool idea and I’ll be keeping track to see how you progress. If I can be of any help just let me know.

 

JohnZ
seeing as how the wideband O2 sensor in my aftermarket system has a BIG part in determining mixture based on combustion efficiency (AF Ratio can be predetermined by a AFR table); unless, as Plasticman noted, the injectors cannot provide sufficient flow, it should try to compensate.
Bill

 

John
i have already slid down the slippery slope of EFI conversion..


no plans, just mental masturbation on how my system would 'survive' if i got in a situation where i used E85 or if even the dreaded E15 becomes a reality. my friend predicted doom and gloom for prolonged use...

sure wish you were around when we were going through the initial tuning way-back-when; there were times when i was looking around for very tall buildings to jump off of.....
Bill

 

To run E85, you still need the real-time sensor in the fuel feed line, and an ECM that knows what to do with the signal; the post-combustion O2 sensor won't do it. If it could be done based only on an O2 sensor signal, the OEM's wouldn't have spent the money for the real-time gas/ethanol sensor upstream of the injectors.

 

Bill,

John Z is correct concerning the O2 sensors ability to handle different levels of ethanol. The company I would for also mades the ethanol sensors (but not in my location). The ethanol sensors are in the fuel line and supply real-time information to the ECU so it can vary pulsewidth to the injectors. My guess is that someone in the aftermarket is selling a system that has that capability.

By the way, cool looking injection system.

VetteJohn

 

Q: Why would anybody WANT to run E-85? Why would you need to?

Read this:

Interesting read about Ethanol - the alternative fuel:
________________________________________


Here is the summary of a comparison of E-85 and Gas from San Diego to Vegas both ways.
Quote:
________________________________________

The Final Score — Fuel Economy and Cost
After refueling we put the fuel amounts and the prices paid into a spreadsheet and compiled a clear, side-by-side comparison for both fuel consumption and cost. Remember, these results apply only to this vehicle and to the prices in effect during our 667-mile test.

Gas Result: From San Diego to Las Vegas and back, we used 36.5 gallons of regular gasoline and achieved an average fuel economy of 18.3 mpg.

Gas Cost: We spent $124.66 for gasoline for the trip. The average pump price was $3.42 per gallon.

E85 Result: From San Diego to Las Vegas and back we used 50 gallons of E85 and achieved an average fuel economy of 13.5 mpg.

E85 Cost: We spent $154.29 on E85 for the trip. The average pump price was $3.09 per gallon

Gas/E85 difference:The fuel economy of our Tahoe on E85, under these conditions, was 26.5 percent worse than it was when running on gas.

A motorist, filling up and comparing the prices of regular gas and E85, might see the price advantage of E85 (in our case 33 cents or 9.7 percent less) as a bargain. However, since fuel economy is significantly reduced, the net effect is that a person choosing to run their flex-fuel vehicle on E85 on a trip like ours will spend 22.8 percent more to drive the same distance. For us, the E85 trip was about $30 more expensive — about 22.9 cents per mile on E85 versus 18.7 cents per mile with gasoline.

The Final Score Card — Performance
We were also interested to see if there was a clear difference in performance. Here, the news was better for the renewable fuel. While the test times were generally slower for E85, the difference was small enough to go unnoticed by most drivers. Despite E85's higher octane rating (103 here) the flex-fuel nature of the Tahoe's 5.3-liter V8 engine prevents it from taking full advantage.

Final results 0-60 1/4 mile 50-70 passing,
uphill (sec.)
time (sec.) time @ (sec.) speed (mph) Cajon Pass Baker Grade
Gas 9.3 16.7 84.2 7.6* 7.2
E85 9.8 17.0 82.7 7.2 7.3

* delayed kickdown

Environmental Comparison
E85 is often heralded as a way to reduce air pollution. Since increasing concern about global warming has focused attention on greenhouse gases, we decided to track our carbon emissions during this test.

By relating our observed fuel economy to CO2 emission figures found in the EPA's Green Vehicle Guide we determined that our gasoline round trip produced 706.5 pounds of carbon dioxide. On E85, the CO2 emissions came to 703.1 pounds. The difference came out in E85's favor, but only by a scant 0.5 percent. Call it a tie. This is certainly not the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions we had been led to expect.

Related Questions About E85
Recent concerns have surfaced about the efficiency of ethanol production. Some critics have actually said that it is a "negative energy source," meaning that more energy is required to produce ethanol than it delivers as a fuel. Further doubts have surfaced about the true environmental benefits of ethanol and E85. And some critics have said that as farmers switch from growing corn for food production to growing it for ethanol, it could produce food shortages. Higher corn prices have already been reported.

But our test wasn't designed to answer those questions. What we can say is that motorists already feeling strapped because of current gasoline prices won't get any relief by switching to ethanol. There are sure to be some who elect to pay the premium to run on E85 to support U.S. energy independence, which is a noble act.

Looking into the future, E85 prices will almost certainly fall as production rises. But will they fall enough to offset the reduced fuel economy? And when will there be enough pumps to make it practical? If an E85 pump is just 10 miles out of the way, thus requiring a 20-mile round trip, you're looking at a $4 or $5 premium just to get to the fuel. We had to go 130 miles to find the only E85 station in our state. In addition, we can imagine a scenario in which elevated E85 demand will not only put upward pressure on E85 prices, but may also tempt oil companies to cut gasoline prices to compete — ultimately driving the public back to fossil fuels.

We applaud the pursuit of energy independence and the financial boost ethanol production will give to American farmers. But is E85 the panacea promoters say it is? While it could be a part of the solution, it is clearly not a silver bullet. If the economics don't change significantly, a broader introduction of E85, as proposed by our government and endorsed by U.S. automakers, could eventually be met with a negative response — even from our most patriotic consumers.

________________________________________
Interesting & informative link:
http://www.energyjustice.net/ethanol/factsheet.html

 

Why bother - nothing to gain. How much gas do you use in a C-1 over the course of one year, 2, 3, 4, 5. ? Then there is the problem of even finding E-85. I have yet to see one station in the NE selling it. It's a albatross.

 

You guys quit pickin' on Bill. He likes to tinker!

He did a nice job converting his Rochester FI to electronic function. I doubt his intention using E-85 was to save money. JUst to see if he could do it!

 

i do know EXACTLY how much gas i've used, i enter it on a spreedsheet.

since 9/10/2005 i have driven 35,588 miles and used 2,102.28 gallons for an average cost per gal of $3.01 and an average of 16.91mpg.

Bill

2 different engines (LT1 & ZZ4) and 2 different FI systems (FI & EFI). ZZ4 has only had EFI, LT1 ran both systems

 

Thanks Mike...

that's exactly it, i wanted to see if i could tell a difference in the way the car ran with a higher alcohol content. with the mix of E10 and E85 i had in the tank, i figure it was ~E45..

therefore my question was, could you use E85 in a non-FlexFuel system (OEM and specifically aftermarket) and to what detriment.

my one-time experience indicated no immediate problem(s). (i was puckered up till i filled up again with E10)



Bill

 

Credit where credit is due!