JohnZ

You're way off base. NCRS was NOT "verifying cars for payment". NCRS has an agreement with Barrett-Jackson that any car described or claimed as having achieved an NCRS award must have that award confirmed as a fact by NCRS by the consignor, at his expense, before the car goes across the block, to stop the use of fake awards in vehicle descriptions and display materials. This has been in effect for the last four years (the other big-publicity auction house wasn't interested).

kenba

Is that because you are trying to sell 63 thru 67 that has parts from all 5 years on them. If you pay good money for a 67 one should expect to have all 67 parts not 3 through 7 parts & aftermarket add ones. NCRS dose a great service to keep people from getting screwed buying from some sellers that try to pass of a made up Corvette as being CORRECT (not original) which NCRS dose not do but you seem to not get the connection. You need to call MR. Obvious. For those that get it no explanation is needed. For those that don't none is possible.

Mike Terry

Well lets see, your generator goes out so what do you do, or you fuel pump or your water pump or carb go out, what do you do? Well if you are just a Corvette guy who enjoys driving your Corvette and not hauling it around on a trailer afraid to drive it to get a rock chip or something you go to your local parts dealer and get a new part and keep driving your Corvette. But if you want your car to set in the garage most of the driving season then by all means go try to find a original or like you say now a like part and put on it and drive it. I figure if a car or Corvette motor and all the parts on it last 50 + years with nothing happening to them that is great but you can pretty much bet that something is going to break down on these cars and besides people bought Corvettes back in the 60's to drive the hell out of them and when you do that parts break. Now to replace it with aftermarket parts or to try to find original parts, that is up to you but for me I am going to fix my car with as close as I can get parts and keep driving it not haul it around to car shows, drive it. I will agree to disagree with you so you think what you want and I will think what I want.

63split63

NCRS should not have a financial connection to any auction .

Again JMO , Bill

Old Vet

I was a member of NCRS for several years back in the 90's - but i drive (enjoy) my cars too much to fit in with them…..went out to the regional meet in Loveland Colorado this weekend and was talking with a gentleman associated with NCRS in the judging room, he told me there were some more cars out back, sportsman type cars, drivers…..

I asked him - "Isn't that what they were built for? To be driven & enjoyed?"



I walked away, won't be re-joining the club….

MikeM

They made some of the real Corvettes park out in the back forty?

RCLS4

I see several people suggesting that this conversation should be on the NCRS web site! That would be IMPOSSIBLE! Any hint of criticism, and your post/thread will be eliminated!!! If a newer members asks a question that has been discussed before, they are often lambasted for not buying the judging guide or looking in the archives first. Instead of just letting it go, I've seen other members go out of their way to give a smartass answer! I'm still a member, but there is growing discontent by LOTS of members. It is a VALUABLE part of the hobby, it may not be everyones cup of tea, but the original concept of the club is great! They often complain about the 'greying' of the membership, I can't believe they don't understand the reason!

Ferrolanoman

I have been a national member for over 30 yrs and have learned almost all I know about Corvettes from NCRS but dropped out of the local chapter because of some of the shenanigans detailed above. Too much ego, too much subjectivity in judging, too much cliquishness and so on. However, the manuals--flawed as they may be--still contain a tremendous amount of information and some sort of a standard that at least provide a guide to the fifty-year old cars that we own and work on. The reception that my wife and I got at the Loveland regional this last Friday, however, reaffirmed my conviction that it's probably best to stay away from the whole judging ritual and continue to drive and enjoy and preserve these great cars. Incidentally, we went hoping to find some leads to a driver (not collector) SWC. I felt for four '63 owners there having their cars judged--they were all miserable. So, even if we find a SWC, I seriously doubt we'll put ourselves in that predicament.

Vette Daddy

Dick, so sorry to see things go this far south. I liked Roy at the helm. Too many egos will kill the fun every time.

kenba

I understand what you are saying. I have bought & sold over 300 Corvettes in the day. It's all about what you want. All I am saying is give the people what that pay for with no BS.I am sure you know that ALL Car clubs judge car for factory correctness now. I just bought a 19631/2 427/425 HP Ford conv. that is factory correct with mostly NOS parts with all the correct markings ETC. This would not have happened if it were not for NCRS. Correct cars will always bring more money than made up ones. NCRS doesn't say it has to be factory installed only to look like it.

jasonsamara

I just don't understand all the restamping and "correct" but not original parts. To me it's either original or it is not. If I buy a NOM 327 and have it stamped, why is that different than buying the same engine, but having it stamped correct? It's the same motor is it not?

I walk over to the building at Carlisle every year and it cracks me up to see these C4 Vettes all displayed like they are worth their weight in gold. I mean is anyone ever gonna pay huge money for a 86 anything?

Frankie the Fink

Again, if you don't have some way to set standards for certain levels of restoration then what do you have ?
Chaos.

The cars will gradually deviate from some threshold of originality until the original as-built configurations become completely obscured. Granted (ignoring the stupid internal politics) the NCRS has its faults but what would anybody here suggest as an alternative?

There has to be some criteria or the denigration of what these cars represent will just be bedlam.

Larry P

I built my car with the help of members on the NCRS and with every intention of going for judging. After my experience with the personalities and clicks both local and national. I got out. It's hard to get in.
I have never had any problems socially with a long history with Rotary, Golf clubs and Street rod clubs. I have never seen the same ability to except new people at NCRS at any level. Sorry.
Hope this post doesn't get moved or locked as the organization is important to our hobby, just needs some good judgement.
Larry

TCracingCA

But this is a throw away and buy the reproduction part society. I totally respect a car with true NOS or rebuilt NOS and it used to be expected that if you wanted those high end credential, you had to earn them by search for the stuff, going to swap meets and such. Thus it took real passion and knowledge to go on the hunt.

I haven't done this with my race car, but I have went the route on some Z-28 Camaros (67 & 69), and one Chevelle!

But what has happened is the market has driven prices up on such. The guys that used to or still do rebuilding- their prices climbed. Thus this attracts foreign manufacturers of knock offs into the fray! Then the guys doing services can't compete and/or they raise the prices further! Thus I turned to the GM Performance Catalogs and aftermarket to get my Alternators, Water Pumps, Starters, Coils, Plug Wires what I call disposables!

What I don't like is that you can make a phone call now and have your windshields, alternators, water pumps and such dated! Kind of ridiculous and you pull out your check book and/or write the check for someone else to do it for you. Thus when I approach someone at a car show, the actual first thing I try to establish is whether they had a true effort in getting the car good looking and authentic or did they just write the check! And as to whether the car was done with reproductions. Thus the patina in my opinion is very telling! I used to value the cars with patina, but now the expert restorers know how to duplicate that!

I also believe that if you like the judging and you want to subject yourself and your car to it, then great have fun. I just don't like this elite attitude unless it was a true participation effort in getting a car to that standard and degree. The high end restorers will always have customers and with them, I hate to see them employ all of the short cut tricks to get the numbers matching and date correct this and that! But that is the name of the game now.

The parts are drying up and to take a car to that state just seems more like an investor game now and not an enthusiast and hobby interest! Thus counterfeit parts, make for counterfeit cars! Don't act so elite!!!!

tuxnharley

Eh, I've owned my '67 since before there was an NCRS and at the rate they're going may well have it after they're gone.............. after all, that approach worked with my first wife!

Funny thing is, there are lots of old multi million dollar Ferraris around that don't have their original engines - or lots of other parts - and they still win major Concours and bring in mega bucks. I've always wondered why NCRS needs to be so **** about things, when many better marques don't......

Critter1

Mike,

First, I should back up a bit and say that there are a lot of really good people in the NCRS organization. My rant was/is with two people. Roy and Carlten.

The following is, of course, just my opinion. And I think the opinion of most of the 63-64 owners that have had dealings with the 63-64 judging manual.

But back to the 63-64 judging guide, here's just one example of the failure.

I was told that all corrections/suggestions had to be sent to Carlten/Roy with documentation.

For years, the JG called for a 3859326 water pump for mid 63 through 64. (and later) I tried to convince Carlten that this was not the case. My info was ignored. Finally, in about 2007, I forwarded a scan of the original blueprint for the 3859326 pump that is dated early 1965! (March, if I remember correctly)
If there was no such thing as a 3859326 water pump on the planed during the 63 and 64 model years, I would say that's pretty good documentation for a correction in the JG.
The information was ignored. The new 5th edition came out a year later with the same error.

That's just one example. There are a lot more.

I was also told that these things weren't really important as there was only a small deduction for the incorrect part. But that isn't the point. It's not the flight award that's important. Preserving history is. That's what the organization was supposed to be all about when it was formed.

Back to factory condition judging certainly isn't for everyone but if that's what an organization is based on, then it should make every effort to compile correct information for it's manuals.


Unfortunately, Carlton didn't agree with this policy and Roy allowed him go on with it for over a decade. Very sad situation.

Procrastination Racing

We still have not heard what the demands were or what the shakeup was.




Sure they would. They came after Critter and me over collecting '63 and '64 information for the judging guide. Gary Chestnut threatened legal action for using the NCRS logo as a link to NCRS, like the Facebook, Twitter, Google and other logos are used as links to their sites on here. And in trademark law, that is a legal use, as it indicates THEIR products, not indicating something of mine.


How can you forget the infamous NCRS t-shirts and stickers?

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-a...gray-logo.html


And if you still don't think it is possible, read the following part below. Notice the censorship?

I still can't figure which side of the fence you are on in this. Some of your posts sound like you defend NCRS, others sound like you dislike their heavy-handed operation of how their business runs.



Incredible, even over here, they exert enough influence to cover up what is going on. I view Dick's post similar to a news announcement, and yet it is censored because of NCRS possible legal action.

Frankie the Fink

I thought the first post was inappropriate for this section of the forum and now its gone down hill from there. I had sure hoped the moderators would close this quickly and now we have names redacted due to threatened (allegedly) legal action.

I know, I know - if I don't like it then don't read it. Well, if you don't like the NCRS then don't join it...

TCracingCA

So far what I have read is a bunch of guys not getting along, and someone telling everyone else about the fight and who was fighting! Sounds like an old tar and feathering! I could see someones feeling hurt that someone said they were wrong or ignorant or feeling like their reputation is hurt!

I think C1/C2 guys are generally the members most engrained in these enthusiast organizations! Thus don't see a problem talking about it on a forum. Actually the perfect place for public opinion and for informing the public.

Based on how well an organization is serving it's members can cause membership to decrease or increase!

In the areas where some legally sensitive things were actually said, the names involved weren't mentioned, is what I recalled such as the attendance at an auction to render services? I will have to go back and re-read that part!

Thus I would advise the NCRS to not do such things, because rendering a judgment on such is opening itself up to a potential problem. And that is far different than a member asking for a Judgment on their own personal vehicle to its quality to a standard. For such an Organization to be involved in valuation, or authentication is definitely falling outside of the boundary! Even if it is done for free! It is rendering a judgment that could directly effect a sell or buy! Thus if the credential (I don't know how I misspelled that above wrong, but I fixed it--Probably typing too fast!) of being to an NCRS standard is stated, then it is up to the buyer and seller to determine the correlation to what they are trying to do in their own deal! To research the intrinsic (I know I spelled that wrong!) value of such and form their own opinion of the importance!

Also if the organization can't take a little constructive criticism, then that is a sad day especially from the level of individuals discussing the topic!

I feel I have been rudely treated trying to check their events out, while trying to support their show by attending! Maybe they should pass out the rules, before letting people passed the rope!

It is a shame that the shipping thing is down. The Sinor guy was trying to help people. Sounded like an overwhelming project and I don't know what kind of help he had! Actually sounds bad that the top guy was having to handle that.

PS I am not a member and get my opinions about how I was received, also from enthusiast wearing the NCRS stickers and comments, and by reading in the Magazines about what they are up to and doing, and by way of the Forum! But then I don't naturally like anyone!

PS don't care if anyone thinks any of my points are relevent or not! Just throwing some more logs on the fire!!!!!

Let's see on the books (manuals) in general for any subject, I have never seen a completely accurate one, but then I haven't seen too many books that have had it all 100% correct. Thus when they replace Version #1 with revision copy number #2, I guess they had better start putting disclaimers in them because apparently #1 was flawed somewhere!

Heck the Assembly Line Factory could have had a bad day, and sent someone over to Joe's Auto Parts with some petty cash to get some water pumps, or alternators to finish the line one afternoon!

Interesting!

Frankie the Fink

My issue was THIS SECTION of the forum. Put it under Politics or "Off Topic" or something; especially since its not just C1/C2 specific. Then the rest of us can get on with life in providing/receiving technical help.