I considered privately e-mailing John Z about this, but decided it's probably best to do it in an open forum to get everyone's comments and make everyone aware of the issues.

As you all probably know, the 1966 Corvette Coupe that raced and won the over 2-liter GT class at Daytona and Sebring that year was at the NCRS Convention and is at the Monterey Historics as I write this.

The car is beautifully restored and the owner, Kevin MacKay, has done extensive detective work to document the car. He has a six inch thick three ring binder full of documentation related to the car.

We've had previous discussions about this car on the Forum, and the issue was primarily what engine was actually installed at the plant. Based on contemporaneous accounts in Corvette News - "the car was qualified with the production engine and this was replaced by a specially built Traco engine for the race..." the implication, based on my interpretation, is that the car was probaby built with an off-the-shelf L-72 engine, and the Traco engine had all the prototype L-88 parts.

I had a couple of conversations with Kevin and he is sure that a prototype L-88 engine was installed at St. Louis. He has documentation that Tonawada built 20 L-88 configurations in '66 for engineering evaluation and believes that one of these engines was installed at St. Louis, but he has not been able to unearth definitive documentation such as photos, or build records that puts the issue to bed for good. He also says that the special cowl induction hood was installed at St. Louis.

I'm primarily interested in John Z's comments, but anyone with something worthwhile to contrbute should pipe in. I'm skeptical that special parts would be installed on the line at St. Louis, although in the case of the L-88 the special parts would have been limited to the spark plug wires, carburetor and associated fuel system and throttle linkage components, and air cleaner assembly, which would include the hood. Just the same, it would be disruptive to the production process for the line to have to deal with special parts on a single car. Engineering development cars are typically ordered with standard RPOs and then shipped to the engineering center where prototype parts are installed for testing and evaluation. In this case the "engineering center" was Penske's operation in Pennsylvania, which allowed GM to do the testing work - via racing - while ostensibly living up to their honoring of the AMA racing ban.

I'm still skeptical about what engine was actually installed at St. Louis and given the current absense of definitive documentation, all we can do is apply inductive reasoning based on knowledge of GM's engineering and production processes and come up with a most likely case.

BTW, John, if you or anyone else sees Kevin in the furture, could you ask him if he has copies of the FIA homologation papers. I'm sure GM would have had to submit them for approval of all the "special parts" such as the L-88 engine and cowl induction hood. Based on the FIA homologation papers I have for the Cosworth Vega, they make very interesting reading. I forgot to ask Kevin about them when we spoke last weekend.

Kevin is a very nice guy and willing to talk to anyone and everyone about the car. He was not at all put off by my skepticism and queries about the plant installed engine, and he, like the rest of us, is interested in fleshing out the car's complete history beginning with the day it rolled down the final assembly line at St. Louis, and I would place this car up in the rarified atmophere of the Corvette SS, Stingray racer, and Grand Sports as one of the most significant cars of the early Corvette era that spanned about the first 20 years of production. Although I do not consider it to be a "factory built L-88" at this point, it was the L-88 engineering prototype that proved the package ultimately leading to the availabilty of RPO L-88 in the '67 model year.

Duke

 

I'm no historian, but what I do remember is that when we toured Jim Jeager's garage in Cincy he had on an engine stand a "prototype big-block Penske Chevy engine" which he can't find any info on, and GM claims doesn't exist. Penske installed it in '66 into one of the GS cars, IIRC. Maybe that engine is one of the same lot that this car's engine is from-- that mythical 20? The giveaway was that the air-cleaner on it was an L-88-style cleaner. Check the following image leeched from http://www.grandsportcorvette.com/gs/gs002.htm :

 

Dum-da-dum-dum........I think I'll be watching this thread Duke. ;)

:D

 

Thanks for the post SWCDuke. I, for one, am very interested.

I've haven't done any research to speak of, but I had heard rumors years ago. When I was in college, in Michigan (in the early 70's) there was a GM co-op engineering student (that drove a dark blue 69 Z-28 with 2-4's and the optional cam by the way) that seemed to swear, based on what he had heard, that there were a number of aluminum head, big cam, extra hi compression, 427 66's put together. I had a fuel injected 64 Vert at the time but was looking for a nice 66 427 Coupe, he got me the assembly manuals for both years (along with certain other things :-). The 66 assembly manual does show the "L-88" option (several of the drawing revisions that added the option are dated 11-26-65). I had also heard of the 66 L-88 that was built for Penske, and posted what I had, here, a few months ago (but I had no confirmable source for that info).

The assembly manual info is not news to you experts I'm sure, but I thought I'd include it for the guys that may not be aware.....

Thanks again - Mike

 

Don Yenko was one of the Chevy dealers/racers that received many special cars including Corvettes and 427 COPO cars. I have read that he had ordered a 66 with some type of prototype motor and M22. The below 66 race car link description states that Yenko modified the engine but that is what they may have been told to say about the car as part of the Chevy underground racing non-program. I have also read that Yenko had a 1968 L88 Corvette delivered with no heater or radio although most people say that all 68s had heaters from the factory. There is some research going on now on some of the Yenko documentation that has been found. The early alu heads may not have lasted very long because there were problems with cracking and rocker studs pulling out. Could these 1966 L88s have been steel head versions of the 67 L88? http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/che...2/l72m22ss.htm
also read last line of this http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/corvette/66BigTank/

 

I don't have any definitive evidence either, but having spent as much time at St. Louis as I did while I was in Zora's group, I rather doubt if that engine and hood were installed at St. Louis; Zora didn't think much of St. Louis to begin with (it WAS a "dump", as assembly plants go - an old, outdated facility that never got any money to modernize it). Zora liked "specials" to be done on his turf (in the Shops at Chevrolet Engineering) where he could control their build/mods and drive them at the on-site test track. Other than one visit during the disastrous 1968 launch (the worst summer of my career) and a quick trip to test the Garner All-American Racing '68 L-88's before we shipped them, I don't think Zora set foot in St. Louis more than twice.

If the paperwork for that car existed, I'd bet a dime to a donut that it would show it was shipped either to Reading, Pennsylvania (Penske's shop) or was drop-shipped to Chevrolet Engineering and then to the selling dealer.

Jim Travers and Frank Coons (Traco) have long since retired, but Jim Jones, who was their chief engine builder (who took over the business when they retired and later sold it to Dale Earnhardt Inc.), is still up and running - he's currently the Engine Development Manager for Callaway Engineering, and he may remember where those "prototype" L-88's he built were shipped. This might be another research data point for Kevin.

 

I still remember the admonishment I received from the grizzled Chevrolet Van Nuys plant manager when I showed up as a cub engineer to train the workers on how to assemble the new '69 Firebird grille and act as engineering liaison for the pilot build: DON"T SCREW UP KID AND GET ME A UNION GRIEVANCE!!!

Being as how this was an "engineering project", no plant manager with worth his salt would have allowed it to disrupt his production operation. Could be they just installed the engine as shipped and dressed it off line, but the plant manager wouldn't have let his personel do it. He would have told engineering to send their own people down to install their special parts, and if they were real nice and didn't get him a union grievance he might even provide them with working space to do the work. Knowing GM's bureaucratic system and the antipathy between manufacturing and engineering, the most expedient way to build the car would have been to simply build it as a L-72, M-22, C-48, F-41, J-56, G-81, and N-03 (These were all released RPOs). Then Guldstand picks up the car at the plant and drives it back to Pennsylvania where Penske's crew (maybe) replaces the L-72 with on of the engineering mule L-88s, which had cast iron heads, along with the hood and other race prep. They had two weeks to do this, which was not a stretch at all.

So Guldstrand qualifies the car, and then the carefully build Traco with all the L-88 parts is installed after qualifiying. Then again, the qualifying engine could have just been a production L-72. Corvette News said the car qualified with the "production engine". A useful piece of data would be the qualifyilng time versus the typical race lap. If a mere L-72 was used to qualify, the race laps would probably have been a bit faster, even if they were short shifting the engine to conserve it for the 24 hours races.

Many want to believe that prototype parts were installed at the plant, and there is documentation that apparently supports this, but probably not completely without inference. It may seem like a small point to argue about, but the truth will be telling as it gives insight into how Chevrolet conducted the L-88 development program.

Duke

 

John - It's well documented and established that Dick Guldstrand picked up the car at St. Louis and drove it back to Pennsylvannia. This gave Penske's crew the time they needed to get the car prepped for the race. Normal truck or rail shipping wouldn't have given them enough time, so the car was delivered at the plant, which was another SOP. The production paperwork, none of which has been found to my knowledge, would certainly show the engine option, and would probably show the car was built for Penske Chevrolet. The engineering development parts and other consideration was probably supplied to Penske's separate race shop by a contract with Chevrolet Engineering, which has also not been found to the best of my knowledge.

I wonder how they invoiced the car???

Duke

 

Were the engines stored at the assembly plant as a complete unit? If the special parts were all part of the engine assembly then they would just have to have the special engine in the right place at the right assembly station. Or is this too simple? I know the assembly line personal I worked with (not automotive) complained any time engineering even went near the line. They did not like any changes once they learned a process.

 

Engines arrived in steel shipping racks exactly as they left the engine plants, with all bolt-on dress parts installed on the assembly plant engine dress line. Duke is exactly right about "specials" requiring someone from Engineering on-site to "shepherd" the special parts so they didn't get mis-used, lost, or installed on the wrong engine. When we built the first 50-car batch (of the 69 built) of ZL-1 Camaros at Norwood in February of '69, I was with Production Engineering, and was assigned to the engine dress line to round up and quarantine the special parts and fasteners and follow every engine down the dress line, make sure anti-seize was used on every fastener that went into the aluminum blocks and heads, and to ensure that every fastener was hand-started and hand-torqued so they didn't strip out. Another group of engineers was stationed at Tonawanda to supervise the machining and assembly of the engines, and yet another group of engineers was stationed at Winters Foundry to supervise the casting and rough machining of the aluminum blocks.

This kind of activity was VERY expensive (travel costs, lodging, rental cars, etc.) and sapped engineering manpower that was desperately needed elsewhere to support current and next-model year engineering work. The Camaro ZL-1 program was large (relatively speaking, 69 cars), but one-car "specials" didn't merit that kind of engineering attention and expense - that's why they were done at Engineering or at outside shops.

 

dick told the story about the car and the trip at a seminar at the NCM in june. i know he said the engine they raced had iron heads because they did not trust the aluminum ones. the early aluminum heads had 2 big problems,the seats fell out and the guides would slip down. we would mark the guides so to get them back in the same location because they were bored after they were installed in the heads so the hole was not always in the direct center. we would groove them for a wire snap ring,install the snap ring and reinstall the guides back in the heads with the snap ring used as a stop to prevent the guides from slipping down. we also installed over size OD seats using a shrink fit to get a better grip in the heads. i think the orignal seats were just pressed in. those were the DIY racing days not like now you just write a check.

 

Thanks Guy's, Excellent and informative Reading... Great Posts!!
I remember going to Penske dealership in Phila at I think 48th and Chestnut st back in the 60's and looking at cars. I was with a friend of mine and he was looking for a new car.

We came upon this Chevy Nova, kinda blan, no chrome,just painted all black.
It had dull gray interior,and no radio. We noticed a shiffter on the floor and then we looked at the window sticker. Now this is from my memory which is not that great, but I think the price of the car was $2300.00 and the option package read............ Special ZL-1 option $4000.00 and Change.
We then asked to look under the hood. The sales man opened the hood and their was this massive chunck of aluminum.

Now tell me if what I just described was real. Was it a Nova? Was it a ZL-1?
Did the General Put This Motor in other special cars. The picture Of the window sticker is still fresh in my mind.

:crazy: :crazy:


[Modified by Viet Nam Vett, 9:07 PM 8/19/2002]

 

It was probably a dealer option. They likely order a 396 car and substituted in the ZL-1. What amazes me is that they would build something like that to sit in the showroom. Most dealers wouldn't have even known ZL-1 from a hole in the ground, a few may have been willing to build-to-order, but build for the showroom? :crazy:

 

Yeh, I hear Yah. I remember the car was not in the showroom but in a garage prep area alongside the showroom with a bunch of other new cars.
It did have a GM Window sticker glued onto the driver side rear seat window. It looked like a factory sticker, in fact it looked just like the other car stickers. I didn't know wat a ZL-1 was back then and neither did my buddy. He liked the car but his father wasn't going for the $8300.00 sticker
for a Nova. All we new was the motor was big and it had a floor shift.
That's all that mattered.

Man.................20/20 hine Site!!!! If I new then what I know now..and so on.......

 

I can also relate to that
A friend and I went into Jack Head Chevrolet (Alhambra CA) in 1969 to take a close look at the Z28 Camaro. A salesman walked over and told us we were looking at the wrong car and pointed to a drab green very plain Camaro at the far end of the lot.. Well we walked over to take a look..
Car looked plain Jane except for the Hurst shifter..
It wasn't until we looked at the sticker that the sticker shock hit..

Brand new Z28 was around $3200 Still can't believe those prices makes me want to cry....

But....

That drab green one had the $4000 ZL1 engine option


Tony

 

Dick must like that story! Didn't he just write an article that appeared in the NCM magazine? Picked up the car in the dead of winter - no heater, they wrapped him up in blankets and off he went into the snowstorm..... something like that. He was telling the same story at the NCRS showroom at Monterey, and I'm thinking..... Where have I heard this story before??? :) It was very entertaining!! :) MJ

 

"no heater, they wrapped him up in blankets and off he went into the snowstorm..... "

( I do have the conversation on video for the actual verbage if needed)
I dont remember the snow storm, but he told me last summer it was
freezing cold, so they packed him in shipping blankets for the trip.
Another clue on the engine, he said it would barley run
when he picked it up, idled about 1500 rpm, barked, popped and
shook the whole way back. That does not sound like an L72 to me.
When Jim Gessner reads this, he may be able to help.

 

396 RAT,

I remember this quote from some time ago. I'm leaning towards the L-88 being in the car when it left St. Louis, in spite of the unlikelihood of this having happened. I don't think Dick would have found it hard to distinguish between the two engines. Not many L-72s ever idled at 1500rpm.

 

Duke, I respect your skeptical eye because I've found it to be the safest, but let me tell a related tale. Talking to a gentleman who later finished his college degree and advanced into higher management at Chevrolet - the scene is 1983 NCRS National at Bowling Green and 4 of us have found refuge from the cowboy band at the nearby Holiday Inn bar. The topic is this man's service ON THE LINE during 1961-3; the question "Did anything out of the ordinary ever happen while you were there?". The answer was "No, not really. Unless you count the gliders.". "Gliders?" we chorused. "Yeah, the cars like Dave McDonald's ZO-6 that were built without engines on the line because there was an engine in a crate waiting for it at the end of the line.". True story.

 

JohnZ....would you by chance have some info on a 71 ZR2 RSTR, M22, 3:70 no PS or PB yet with the HD Brakes that was sent to Jim Rothman In Melbourne Fla? (Yes it does have the twin disc factory clutch.)
Larry :yesnod:


[Modified by VetteLS6, 5:07 AM 8/21/2002]