rich5962

I have this on the NCRS site too but I know many of you spend lots of time here waiting for some folks to share problems.

Well, this time it's me.

If we figure it out then I'll post results in both places to help future owners with similar "Holleyitis" issues.....IF that's what it is.


I'm just gonna copy/paste, okay?

Please check out this clip in real time so you can listen in on my problem. I feel I have a problem carburetor condition going on and could use some guidance. It has a hard stumble when I blip the throttle from idle. Feathering it helps and accelerator pump is working, Maybe it needs adjustment. Could it be the Power Valve, or something blocked up inside? This is a new Holley 2300C. I'm more familiar with Carters than Holleys. I don't want to start doing things and make it worse.

The idle mixture(not idle adjust I verbalized it the clip) are at about 1 1/2 to 2 turns out from stop. I reached maximum vacuum at these settings, however I don't seem to get much variation of vacuum when I adjust the right bank.

TO SKIP THE CRAP IN THE BEGINNING AND TO GET RIGHT TO THE STUMBLE MOVE TO ABOUT 5:50 IN THE CLIP. But there's important data from the start to identify what I have set up.


Thanks,
Rich
p.s. I got interrupted for a hour when our black(appropriate color) Cocker Spaniel named "HOLLY"(appropriate name) sneaked out the open gate where I had my engine coolant outlet hose running. She showed up later just moping along back to the field out back from 60 heavily wooded acres beyond. This after a exhaustive search by my wife, son and I and all of our neighbors and friends.

-
Follow up, I tried adjusting the accelerator pump to give a quicker squirt, maybe that's it, but I ran out of gas on restart then flooded it trying to restart after tanking it up and then drained the battery.

On the charger and drying out the intake saturated fuel with throttles wide open for a while.

Also, when I had it running again after the video earlier, I see the right side venturi is profusely dripping fuel at higher RPM's, not vaporizing. What the heck is going on? It's a brand new Holley.

-

SupremeDeluxe

Rich,

I just solved this exact problem on my L-71. I had taken my old Holleys off and installed a new set of service carbs. Timing set for 34 total centrifugal advance by 3000 RPM (conservative), OE 201 vacuum canister. My idle advance is right around 24 degrees like yours.

To shorten a long story, Holley quality is complete garbage and I ultimately found the seat for the check ball in the primary bowl was deformed, not allowing the ball to seat completely and pushing part of the accelerator pump shot back into the float bowl. It was hard to isolate, because when manually actuating the throttle, it would still deliver a shot most times. It was just not the full volume it should have been.

I took a countersink and cut a nice chamfer on the check valve seat, re-installed the check ball and bail, and the throttle response is now as sharp as a fuel injected car under any throttle snap condition.

There was also a small piece of flashing inside the accelerator pump discharge port in the bottom of the float bowl.

Nick

rich5962

Nick, Wow that sounds like it may be it. Once I get it started again shortly I'll take a quick clip of the squirters and post it up.

Thanks Much,
Rich

rongold

Rich,

MelWff

at about 1:30 minutes into this video they explain how to adjust the clearance between the pump arm and the linkage

rich5962

Yes and I just adjusted it and it's still not right. I just did another clip. Wanted it to be a short one, but I think i agree with you both, and.....the right side idle mixture screw has NO effect on operation. I think the low to high speed circuit is plugged up with something. I will remove the carbs in the morning,front 2 IIRC.

I have to go out, hate to leave you guys now, but I'm going to load the next clip on YT and provide the link here.....but you'll have to wait till it's finished....in about 1/2 hour. Here's the link.....

Holleyitis......I thought so.

Thanks Guys !!!

SupremeDeluxe

Rich,

Seems like its running off one of the outboard carbs at idle, that is why you cannot adjust the emulsion screws. Are you sure the secondary linkage is allowing the outboard carbs to be fully closed?

I still think the accelerator pump is questionable, but based on the new video you have multiple problems.

FWIW, at 2 turns out from bottom, that is pretty rich in my experience. You may not find any change in idle quality or vacuum with minor changes from that baseline. I've always been able to get stable idle with 1 to 1-1/4 turn from bottom.

Nick

rich5962

Yes I checked the linkage and sure the plates are closed. Checked several times.

Yes multiple problems. Accel pump, probably like your problem, and maybe some debris or other problem.

I set the mixture screws to 1 1/2 turns but no difference. THe fact that as you saw, the right side is inoperable tells me something is wrong inside. I'm pulling it in the morning then will decide if it goes back to Holley or what. I have much to do on the car and I don't really want to start tearing into a Holley right now, plus I need to understand warranty, etc.

Thanks for all of the help and advice. I'll check back with info as I get it.

Rich

427Hotrod

Before going too far....If the idle screws aren't doing anything...try shooting some carb cleaner down the idle air bleeds (the outboard ones). Doesn't take much to make things un responsive.

JIM

OldKarz

Good advice!

rich5962

I had a good phone conversation with the supplier of the carburetors today and we're working through the problem. There is a warranty and he's making arrangements to help me resolve the problem.

We may try a few more tests before I remove it and send it to his carb expert who I've worked with before and is a excellent restorer rebuilder.

That carb expert restored 3 original Holley's for me several years ago, then restored a pair of WCFB's for a '60 that came out like jewelry and ran perfectly. I'm confident they'll correct this one for me also.

Thanks for your help to diagnosis this problem. I needed another group of eyes to help me figure it out before I made the call today.


Rich

rich5962

After a long diagnosis, I found the problem. (btw, I took a quick Holley course doing all of this. I think I passed)

I worked with the guys on the phone and I offered to help so we could get to the bottom of this asap.

I pulled the center carb and removed the fuel bowl and metering block.

I found some debris inside the bowl and it was totally blocking one jet and other pieces left inside. The guys said it must have entered through the vent on top of the air horn and eventually lodged itself in there.

I also learned a bit about power valves. We suspected it may have blown since I had a few backfires when testing. I removed it and checked the diaphragm, seemed okay but hard to see deep inside. I made a MityVac hose contraption and tested it. It was fine.

The rest of it needs a thorough cleaning and air passages blown out. I'll re-check the accelerator pump and may go in for a closer look, but need to talk to the guys before I do.

I think it may be fine once it's thoroughly cleaned out. I'll probably open the other 2 carbs and check those for debris since I have them off. I suspect they may have similar packing debris inside and wouldn't know until they're activated under load.

The packing material in the box broke open in transit here and some of it must have dropped in the vents. I thought I cleaned it all out but never thought of the vents.

Stuff happens, could've been worse. Sometimes simple things just don't go right.

If this all it turns out to be easy, I'll be a happier Holley'er.

Thanks for the help,
Rich

Kerrmudgeon

Real curious as to the solution to the problem. Love that black on black....gonna be bad assed! 59's no slouch either.

rich5962

Looks like maybe just a good cleaning may fix 'em all up.

rich5962

Guys, It took some time. I had to open up all 3 completely to clean them out. Each one had the foam specs inside and I found other issues too.

Thanks for checking it out and helping me decide what to do.

The accelerator pump wasn't working right because.....


















I couldn't figure out why the foam bits were green. hWhn I took the accelerator pump apart to check it I found out why.....


















As Nick mentioned, the castings are, well, not so "grrrrreat".

















I got a crash course in Holley carburation with this. At least I learned something new. When I get them back on the engine I hope it fixes the issues. I suspect it will. I'll do another clip after it's warmed up and maybe get a better throttle response now.

Thanks,
Rich

Gary's '66

Glad to see you're on top of your issue. Just curious, but what's up with the green crap on the pump spring? Did you get any feedback from them as to what it is and why on earth it was put there in the first place? Beautiful cars btw!

Gary

rich5962

Thanks, The black one belongs to a good friend of mine. It's gorgeous. He bought it 3 years ago. The body had never been off. The chassis and suspensions needed a complete restoration. Broken factory welds at the sombrero mount, rusted endcaps and bad #4 mounts, etc, etc. Somebody painted the frame over surface rust to cover lots of little sins, plus many other safety related faults that could've been dangerous if left untouched.

The white '59 is my keeper now going on 30 years. Never to be fully restored as I drive it every chance I get. It has a nice "well used" patina and still looks pretty good.

I'm sure the green spring is painted as a color code identifier. The paint on it was very sticky when I pulled it and likely would wash off completely over time. It was just weird when I pulled the pump nozzle and saw the green fibers instead of yellowish like the other pieces found. They were embedded inside the grooves and packed in there tight, acting like tiny fuel filters but still letting some fuel past it all. I chuckled when I first saw it.

BTW, the big Phillips screw holding the pump nozzle wasn't that tight either. And many of the screws on all 3 carbs were not tightened properly. Even some of those clutch head screws holding the inner plates on the end carbs were a bit loose, as well as the diaphragm assemblies.

When I first took the carbs off another issue was the throats in the manifold had much fuel sitting there. I need to clean it and check the oil for any fuel contamination. All spark plugs were dry and the runs were ultimately too lean as now proven. The combustion chambers were simply not getting ENOUGH fuel.


I also found that the front carb had lots of fuel sitting at the throttle plates. Before all this I sometimes had a drip at the right shaft area. Sure enough, when I had that one apart I saw the throttles were not real tight against the bores. One side had a casting flaw in the bore just at the edge of the plate. It kept both plates open a touch. I could see light around the edge.

You can see it as a white reflection at around 2 o'clock in this shot....


It's those tiny 2 spots as seen below. Last pic with the jewelers screwdriver pointing at it after I dressed it flatter. Then both plates shut fine with no telltale light passing by.








So, all in all, I'm now glad I had this crazy problem. Going through all 3 carbs taught me some new lessons, as well as fixing some things that weren't right.

Thanks for sharing this with me.

6T7L71CPE

Rich,
Here are my thoughts on the fuel leaking from the end carbs. My carbs were "refurbished" by Holley years ago. A few years later I realized the end carbs would leak down and leave fuel on the butterflies and manifold. I determined that the metering plates were warped. In the picture you'll see that the fuel level is above the idle circuit openings. So, if the plate is loose, gasket not sealing, it'll leak down. That's my theory and I'm sticking with it!



PS My age old carbs look better than those new castings!

rich5962

Good info. Maybe that's why this front carb had some drips under it. Several screws were loose holding the plates on both carbs..

I noticed right away as I tried to look up specs for the torque of the screws. I wanted to be sure to do it by the book. I couldn't find a spec so I snugged them tight by hand and used a in-lb torque wrench, set a 5, and they moved, then I went to 7, then 10 and was satisfied.

Maybe not important to torque them, but when I found several loose, on both carbs I decided to be **** about it.

These are the originals I had restored a few years ago by Craig Bartling(the CarbGuy) down here in Florida. Also a pair of 2x4 WCFB's a few years ago,














WCFB's he did

Before....



After...

rich5962

I think I've solved the problems. Yesterday I reinstalled all 3 after cleaning. Much better. However still a bit of a stumble. Partly due IMO to not at normalized engine temperature, only up to about 120* F, but after more research, reading my Holley books and reviewing suggestions, I removed the accelerator pump nozzle this morning and did some measurements and comparisons to the original one I have here. Both are stamped "21".

The new one's holes are less than 0.021", maybe 0.018-0.019". The old one is 0.021" or a tad more for sure. It looks like someone opened it up when I see it magnified.

I just installed the original that measures 0.021", stumble is almost totally gone. I spoke to my carb restorer and Holley test consultant this morning and he said I could open up the new one to up to 0.025" and it'd be ideal. I'm going to take his advice.

I must say I've become a bit smarter after diagnosing these problems. My Holley comfort level has dramatically increased.

Here's the clip from this morning before I took off for the afternoon.....

Nozzle pics...Original one is the old looking part.