When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I think the time is approaching where I finally buy an investment grade car (rather than busting my own knuckles for years). I've sort of narrowed it down to
1967
Multiple carbs (400 with AC or 435 without)
Red w/Red or Blue w/Blue
Likely a roadster but am still open to coupes
Cars of that ilk are about a buck sixty, so I need to know a lot more. I've read the C2 FAQ, but it's primarily a technical FAQ.
My question, then, is what should I read and where should I turn to become educated enough on C2s in general, Corvette investing, and how not to get burned?
Because I'm new, I will likely look for a Top Flight car already judged, which helps a bit I suppose.
So, please point me at whatever I should know before I ask a lot of questions (and I do know how to search, but I still need a general education on options, desirability, the market, and so on).
Be prepared to look at one of the most forged car out there beside the 69 Z/28. Join NCRS and attend some local chapter events and learn, learn, and ask a lot of questions. Go to NCRS web store and buy a bunch of the refreance books and study. And investment grade cars are few and far between and usually sold by word of mouth between collectors. Good luck
Be prepared to look at one of the most forged car out there beside the 69 Z/28. Join NCRS and attend some local chapter events and learn, learn, and ask a lot of questions. Go to NCRS web store and buy a bunch of the refreance books and study. And investment grade cars are few and far between and usually sold by word of mouth between collectors. Good luck
With all of the above.
The only other thing I would suggest would be to hire a well informed and respected person to inspect the car/cars that you nail down as those that you really want. It will most definitely be $ well spent and I think that you'll find that will be the general consensus from most everyone on the forum.
1967 Multiple carbs (400 with AC or 435 without) Red w/Red or Blue w/Blue...Likely a roadster... Cars of that ilk are about a buck sixty, so I need to know a lot more.
Refigure your budget for about 3 bucks+ for good color L71 roadster and well above a buck sixty for the others you mention if you are thinking of a real car, meaning not a clone, not a restamp, not a fake car. Yes they are out there and yes they can be found. If you think you have found one, have your expert go over the car but before you jump consider having one of the recognized experts evaluate the tank sticker, trim tag, vin tag and engine pad. These are the areas where there just is no room for "looks OK" or "I think it's real." JMHO but NCRS can evaluate the tank sticker and CCAS is well recognized as an authority on Trim Tags and engine pads. Join NCRS and post questions on their forum as well, ncrs.org and you will get help as well as on this forum. If you get a nibble, remember pictures are very helpful in weeding out some of the easily identified clones. My advice is take your time, look look and look, then ask ask and ask, they spend the $ for the expert opinions. Good luck with your quest
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
2019 C1 of Year Winner (performance mods)
2017 Corvette of the Year Finalist
2016 C2 of Year
2015 C3 of Year Finalist
1. Don't view Corvette ownership as anything other than an investment in pleasure. If it maintains it's value or appreciates a bit, that's a nice by-product to the pleasure driving them brings to you.
2. Join the NCRS and read their books. Go to local Chapter events and Regionals and talk to savvy people.
3. Bring someone knowledgeable with you to inspect any car you are considering. That's alot of money.
Nobody jumped on the term 'investment grade' in the original post.
Dealers love that phrase to justify a mind-numbing price tag on something they are selling -- justified or not.
IMO a truly investment grade car is going to sit in a museum with ropes and stanchions around it. I get the feeling the OP wants to actually use the car for pleasure driving.
Enough of that and the investment value will start heading south.
The great cars are usually traded among collectors although there have been a couple that have gone to auction. They are out there but you have to know where to look and what to look for. I can tell you this and that is you will never find a red on red or black 435 convertible with side pipes for 160 that is documented with no issues. If you do and pass on it, I will buy it and pay you a generous finders fee.
marina blue with white vinyl interior and white stinger ,Numbers matching documented with tank sticker, correct date codes and trim tag ,body-off restoration every nut and bolt by vette dreams ,65,000 miles, 4-speed AM/FM ,white wall tires , lacquer paint , 3 NCRS top flights awards , runs and drives great best of the best- call fred 908-770-0251
My recommendation would be to get Jim or someone similar (there are a few out there) as a "car finder" for you. Put down your wants and needs and have them find the car for you. Then go an do a personal inspection for yourself.
I did this years ago and used Mike Kitain on the East Coast (NJ). I do not think he does this anymore, but I do have a few names of those that do. The true investment grade and special cars are known to the right folks, but don't often come up for sale..........but they can be purchased. My 1967 was like this, not officially for sale, but could be bought for the right price.
However, if you enjoy the search, then educate yourself as others have said and also join and attend NCRS to learn more about these cars. Books are not enough. I also did this, and became a NCRS Master Judge in the process, but it was primarily to learn and educate myself about these cars.
Nobody jumped on the term 'investment grade' in the original post.
IMO a truly investment grade car is going to sit in a museum with ropes and stanchions around it. I get the feeling the OP wants to actually use the car for pleasure driving.
I actually wouldn't drive it, much. I have a 10-year old restoration with 300 miles on it and that's about the extent, likely less. No ropes, but controlled access. My general guideline is "can it be detailed out of the undercarriage such that you can't tell I drove it", and until you get the first chip, that's largely safe on dry days for a little ways...
If a car has won recognizable awards like Top Flight, does that preclude it being a fake? I realize NCRS judges aren't in the business of doing free evaluations, but once a car is NCRS TF wouldn't they vet it enough that it's not a restamp? Or does judging not include paperwork? Clearly I'm new.
I will check out the NCRS web store as my first stop.
Here's an example of car that if it were already NCRS judged I would look at vetting (no pun):
But that's based on pictures and description, I don't know the car, and there's no docs, and I'm not sure it's even claimed as original, just from appearance.
No NCRS DOES not judge ANY paper work and they WILL NOT valadate ANY car being a real or not. How ever they will deem cars counterfeit if they feel a SB car was made into a BB car.
No NCRS DOES not judge ANY paper work and they WILL NOT valadate ANY car being a real or not. How ever they will deem cars counterfeit if they feel a SB car was made into a BB car.
Thanks, sort of guessed that, good to know.
Does anyone know rough survivor count for 435hp cars? I read the thread on documenting '63s and was wondering if someone has done similar for these cars.
There are 213 of them (counted!) in the C2 registry, but I wonder what the ratio of registry to real world is.
Nobody jumped on the term 'investment grade' in the original post.
Dealers love that phrase to justify a mind-numbing price tag on something they are selling -- justified or not.
IMO a truly investment grade car is going to sit in a museum with ropes and stanchions around it. I get the feeling the OP wants to actually use the car for pleasure driving.
Enough of that and the investment value will start heading south.
Man, that avatar sure brings up some memories.
Yeah, I've "invested" around 80k in a car that's worth probably 60-65k.
Does anyone know rough survivor count for 435hp cars? I read the thread on documenting '63s and was wondering if someone has done similar for these cars.
There are 213 of them (counted!) in the C2 registry, but I wonder what the ratio of registry to real world is.
I would venture to say less then 50 are true unrestored L71 cars out there And I doubt any are for sale at the moment. Unless you got a boat load of cash.
TF means nothing about having the originally born with motor.
Numbers matching means nothing about having the original born with motor.
I would say up to maybe 90% of the cars you come across, will either have started out as SB car, or have replacement motors if it was an original BB, and do not have the original block, if that is important to you.
Some restamps are really good, some 396 (and 427 blocks) blocks have had their casting numbers and dates ground off and replaced with epoxy cats of the necessary casting numbers and dates to coincide with a particular car.
Unless absolutely proven otherwise, with copious documentation (which is also often fake),assume any car you look at is a fake.
i personally wouldn't go looking to buy a "real" car, i would rather buy one that the seller acknowledges isn't original, and pay the corresponding price, rather that risk losing $100K or more.
And there is no guarantee your "investment" will turn out to be an "investment", at some point*, interest will be lost in these cars, and they won't be worth as much as the buyer pool shrinks dramatically.
TF means nothing about having the originally born with motor.
Numbers matching means nothing about having the original born with motor.
I would say up to maybe 90% of the cars you come across, will either have started out as SB car, or have replacement motors if it was an original BB, and do not have the original block, if that is important to you.
Some restamps are really good, some 396 (and 427 blocks) blocks have had their casting numbers and dates ground off and replaced with epoxy cats of the necessary casting numbers and dates to coincide with a particular car.
Unless absolutely proven otherwise, with copious documentation (which is also often fake),assume any car you look at is a fake.
i personally wouldn't go looking to buy a "real" car, i would rather buy one that the seller acknowledges isn't original, and pay the corresponding price, rather that risk losing $100K or more.
And there is no guarantee your "investment" will turn out to be an "investment", at some point*, interest will be lost in these cars, and they won't be worth as much as the buyer pool shrinks dramatically.
Unless absolutely proven otherwise, with copious documentation (which is also often fake),assume any car you look at is a fake.
i personally wouldn't go looking to buy a "real" car, i would rather buy one that the seller acknowledges isn't original, and pay the corresponding price, rather that risk losing $100K or more.
I don't think non-original cars are a good investment, as they're not making any more originals, but you can make fakes any time. That presumes you can authoritatively tell the difference, of course.
I did that with my Camaro - I found a '69 396 RS/SS car with a fake cowl tag and bought it cheap, as I was going to work on it anyway. But it'll never be a real car. I only want a real car if it's in any way an investment.
It doesn't need to be a survivor, but it needs to be real. Epoxy casts of casting numbers spooks me - I knew about restamps, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by anything.
On the investment side, my opinion is: unless you buy at a market peak (which could happen), a real blue-chip car will hold some value, and if you can wait 5-10 years, the market will cycle that you'll always get your money back. But it might take 10 years, so it's hardly liquid.
I think the C1s are going to drop in value as the guys that own those and care about them age out of the market. Guys born during C2 production are now about 50, hitting the peak of their earning, and I think they're going to go up. I could be totally wrong of course.
My theory is that if you park $200K in a CD you get a line in your Fidelity account, but if you park $200K in a '67 435hp car you can at least take a lawnchair out to the garage and look at it!
Unfortunately I have four kids who are all approaching driving age and storage is at a premium. I wouldn't do it to keep it offsite somewhere.
I had this same discussion back when they were $70K. But conversely there are a ton of guys likely started big dollar restorations on Mopars before they cratered, so there's no guarantee to any of it.
The more valuable a type of car potentially becomes, the more likely chicanery is involved, and a lot of the new car, motor, and documentation forgers, and very, very, good.
I actually wouldn't drive it, much. I have a 10-year old restoration with 300 miles on it and that's about the extent, likely less. No ropes, but controlled access. My general guideline is "can it be detailed out of the undercarriage such that you can't tell I drove it", and until you get the first chip, that's largely safe on dry days for a little ways...
If a car has won recognizable awards like Top Flight, does that preclude it being a fake? I realize NCRS judges aren't in the business of doing free evaluations, but once a car is NCRS TF wouldn't they vet it enough that it's not a restamp? Or does judging not include paperwork? Clearly I'm new.
I will check out the NCRS web store as my first stop.
Here's an example of car that if it were already NCRS judged I would look at vetting (no pun):
But that's based on pictures and description, I don't know the car, and there's no docs, and I'm not sure it's even claimed as original, just from appearance.
Please do yourself a favor and have someone that is knowledgeable help you find the right car. The one that you posted the link to has a bad trim plate at the very least.
The blue white coupe with the link in the NCRS forum is the real deal however it is not a factory sidepipe car.
03-05-2016, 09:55 PM
What to read before buying a '67 400/435 car
With all of the above.
