TCracingCA

Ok went up Hwy 101, made stops and now having late Lunch Paso Robles! I still think the first ones were the important ones that went to the big track events like Sebring and LeMans! We know the Yenko connection and we know the relationship with Delorenzo getting his, so for even like a new start up Dealership like Dana Chevrolet would be thought of as a little odd to select for receipt of a special car, unless you start studying the people! Guldstrand was hired as the General Manager based on his Penske resume, connection and being liked by Zora and learning the back door politics related to getting special cars! So how can some hodunk normal guy get special cars prior to the connected up individuals who had especially gotten cars of similar rarity previously!

TCracingCA

I am the passenger now! This kind of stuff is very valuable. That is a great addition to the history of these topics. When I get home next week, I will pull those articles out of the Vette Vues and put them in my notes.

PS Vette Vues did the slim special L88 article edition. But I think they missed adding this Technical Service bulletin info in that very special subscriber offering! I got my copy of that like over 20 years ago a Carlisles walking the swap meet. I said, what the heck is that, and paid $2 for the Vette Vues L88 special booklet!

Very telling!

Pretty much they thought the aluminum heads were good by March 1967 so cars and plans to put them in the parts system, and for service happened. But from March to the second Technical Service Bulletin, they were having problems and had finally found a solution for at least the big problem. But they did go from the first designs into the second designs in very short order. I wonder if the first design received any revisions of it, prior to the second designs of the open chamber! Maybe someone one knows off of the top of their head as to whether the first designed closed chamber units in aluminum had more than one version.

And back to Dana Chevrolet-- the engine went to Traco for prep, blueprinting and balancing. They wanted to change the wrist pins, but were told not to. But I bet everyone still knew these aluminum units won't make it.

So just because that car was a holy L88, it has been assumed that it ran the 10-11 hours of the race with those, but I have always been a Skeptic on that one, just because it is a 24 hour race!

Even on the 1967 white roadster daytona racer #89, I think it had a problem, the engine got pulled, and then it raced doing the Daytona later etc., and then they the Litigants got the car and found the original engine and it got united. Maybe the heads let go, led to that. This was the car with the big lawsuit between parties or business partners or whatever the heck was going on. I would have to refresh memory on the exact story! I think one guy didn't know the car was valuable and then found out later or something like that! Even the Vette Vues article from I think the 1970s had the names of the parties blanked out, because of the litigation.

-vet

The numbers seldom lie and the natural order is difficult to refute with that logic.

TCracingCA

Ps Everyone don't think I missed the part about the 396 aluminum heads! Interesting? So this has spurred a crazy thought now about 396 L88s? But that could simple be because they fit both the 396/427 family of engine! So you can see how fast we could have started a new rumor! Even in the Dealership Hi performance Catalogs, they listed some heads available and up for sale with the designation 396/427!

But just a very small group (only a very very few sworn to secrecy) knows about my Zora gifted out the back door special 1965 396 L88 car, that I have buried in my backyard! I was going to rent a backhoe and dig it up and show it off at a future Cars and Coffee!

Speaking of coffee, this cup I am drinking right now actually tastes like $hit, I have to call the waitress over! Maybe she accidentally gave me decaf! Sounds like a first World Country problem, like when your climate control and cooling seats in your Mercedes aren't working and your shirt is sticking to your back! Yes First World Country problem for sure with this cup of coffee!

Critter1

That's the white L88 car that Cliff gottlob (sp) bought new. The car was picked up at the St Louis assembly plant and on Cliff's way home, a valve guide moved and the car was flat towed to his home/shop.
He removed the entire original engine and installed a new 68 L88 engine. It was raced at Daytona with the 68 engine.

The car was purchased years later by David Burroughs, Bill Miller and Jim Krughoff.

The restoration by Burroughs was just about 80% complete when I convinced David to restore the car back to race condition instead of factory roll out condition. We reinstalled many of the race components that Cliff still had in his shop.

I drove that car at Laguna Seca many decades ago.

I also drove that car on the street in race trim, including open headers.

Rick Gower

Derek,

This is a little off subject, but I don't know how to convey it with your PM box being full. I just finished reading John Morton's book, Inside Shelby American. The book is mostly about racing, not only Shelby cars and drivers, but many other cars and drivers including corvette. Lot's of great first hand information. If you haven't had the opportunity to read it, I think you will enjoy it. I recently purchased my copy on Amazon for less than $20 shipped.

Thanks for all of our very informative post's and sorry for being off topic on this thread.

Rick

TCracingCA

Waiting on dinner! Yes I have that book! He tells how he started off just sweeping the floors, because Shelby liked a clean shop! That book is where I found the purple C1 car driven by Salyer (again off the top of my head), that I showed in the last Purple People eater thread! Yes I like books with the insider stories! I buy all of those type of books! Anything that talks about the ins and outs if what was happening, I probably have it already!

And heck, I am one of the kings of going off topic! I think the Moderators think I am a lost cause and they just say, there he goes again!

TCracingCA

Cool addition! Thanks for sharing! It is better to get a refresher on the story straight from guys involved than pulling the Vette Vues issues out! I don't remember what the lawsuit stuff was all about, but I think a later magazine talked on that! It is kind of good the engine had a problem and caused the wonderful luck in that causing the preservation of an actual unmolested L88! That was the engine that was used to document much later, as to how and what they used to build them that early on! I have those specs at home in the Anniversary issue of the Best Of Corvette News! I would have to look at what issue, but it would be cool to compare the two, old article specs with the found engine!

Without reading everything again, I thought the original had a cylinder head failure! Thanks for confirming that! I think in the 4 or 5 articles I have on it, they mention that! That is the sister car and same color as the lost Hussein car that went to the Country of Jordan Vin last three numbers 558 (off of the top of my head again), and your guys car is 550! One of my favorites! I was sad it wasn't brought over to the race track, back when it was shown at Pebbles Beach!

They were really having problems with these aluminum heads! Last time I looked on ebay, someone had some claimed to be dated 1/67! I would love to inspect those, but ain't going to buy them!

And thank you for talking them into a race car restoration!

The food getting cold!

TCracingCA

Here is where I was back in another Corvette Forum thread back in 2015 that I just copied and pasted! I haven't updated this information yet with my latest info! And tHe 055 car was on the list (but I have always had suspicions of this being one of the L89 cars)! Since I am away from home, now having a drink and have an ugly woman checking me out, I will play on the iPhone so she can tell that I am not Interested!

Below copied from old thread!

I am trying to get each car matched with the rear axles!

Thus have more work to do!

3.36
LeMans Racer (VIN #113787)- Dana Chevrolet; South Gate, CA.
One more to go- which I think is the Hussein car!

3.55 Axle
Judski Car (VIN #120407))- The infamous Code 43 car that I think was a Goodwin Chevrolet or O'Conner Chevrolet Car!!!!!
#92 Dana Racer (VIN #117527)- Dana Chevrolet; South Gate, CA.
One more to go- ?

3.70 Axle
Silver Convertible (VIN #115484)
Delorenzo Car (VIN #109097)- Hanley Dawson Chevrolet; MI
Green Coupe/Black Interiore (VIN #110702) Noland Adam's book listed
One more to go-

4.11 Axle
Daytona Racer #89 (VIN #121550) Factory Delivered
Maroon Conv. (VIN #118414)- Lyman Slack Chevrolet; Portland, OR Jim Elmer
Goodwood Green Cpe (Affrica car-missing) VIN #
Lyndale Blue Convertible (VIN #118426)- Dehaven Chevrolet; Fort Wayne, IN
Marina Blue Coupe (VIN #117076)- Bast Chevrolet; Seaforth, NY
One more to go!

4.56
Sunfire Coupe (VIN #119136)- S&K Chevrolet; Vallejo, CA.
Red on Red (VIN #115791)- Mike Savoie Chevrolet- Troy, MI
12 mile car (VIN #116945)- Alan Green Chevrolet; Seattle, WA
Black Coupe (VIN #122014)- Lang Chevrolet; Xenia, OH
White Coupe (VIN #117055)- Curtis Chevrolet; Washington DC

Plus the prototype (21st car) Goodwood Green VIN #194377-00-IT-EX. 702 Rathman Chevrolet, FL which was test with a few different axle ratios, and I should have this info as to what we should consider the official one, when Towers got ahold of it! ???


The Farris car claimed to be L-88, but might be a L-89 car had from my memory a 3.70 or 4.11 ??? VIN ??? We got the Vin and it was not an L88, but great possibility of being a L-89.

I should have the DX racer car from Yenko Chevrolet;Cannonsburg, PA (VIN #112805)- (actually picked up at Factory) somewhere which would be the possible other 3.36 if that isn't the Hussein car. ??? Some articles have the delivery axle as a 2.60, but not in the Chevrolet provided information! But I think Yenko ordered it with 3.70.

The Silver Coupe VIN 110055 from Rosenthal Chevrolet, VA I think is a 4.11 car ??? Or that is the Hussein car matching the sister car the Daytona Racer!

Hussein car VIN #121558 factory shipped/delivered. Need to know for sure the axle! ???

I took one car off of my list! Won't say which, but because I can't find $hit on it! Well found info built in the 80's by Bob Rush as a clone down in Florida. Was a 390hp car, so that is in print formerly and can thus be taken off the list!

Therefore we fill up all of the billets on L88 slots, then when a real one is found in the future as we are now filling out the L89 list next (so too late ), we can start another cool thread as to which ones we think are phony or L89s originally!

TCracingCA

Ok since we ended up getting side tracked on 1967 L88s stopping all research on 65/66 HD Conpetition cars or BigTank or M22, I do have some of this on my laptop!

The 110055 car would be the second car if L88, behind the DeLorenzo car! I was getting this 055 Coupe mixed up with an unknown car! In previous post counting, must have been tired and posted the same car as 13 & 19 in counting them initially!

Ok in order

01- 109097 Black Roadster Delorenzo SCCA Racer
02- 110702 Green/Black interior- Noland book mentioned car, Towers prototype
03- 112805 White Coupe Yenko Sebring Racer
04- 113787 White Coupe LeMans Racer
05- 115484 Silver Roadster
06- 115791 Red Red Coupe
07- 116945 Red Coupe 12 Mile
08- 117055 White Coupe
09- 117076 SCCA racer Marina Blue Coupe
10- 117527 #92 SCCA racer Marina Blue Roadster Hill
11- 118414 Maroon Roadster Elmer
12- 118426 Lyndale Blue Roadster
13- 119136 Sunfire Yellow Coupe
14- 120407 White Coupe
15- 121550 #89 Daytona Racer White Roadster Gottlieb
16- 121558 White Roadster Hussein
17- 122014 Black Coupe
18- ?????? Green Green Coupe Affrica
19- ?????? Red Puerto Rico car will add the vin
20- ?????? Red Export Coupe will add Vin

L89 Cars Possibly

01- 110055 Silver Coupe w/AR Mags Wiggins Car.
02- XXXXXX Red Roadster Faris car (thought to be L88, it is not)

The 055 car (i think is the first L89 car) is the Wiggins car claimed to have a 4.56 axle and went drag racing immediately! Born early January 9th, 1967! I don't like that they claim to know a lot about the options, but in the best article don't even mention where it came from, what dealership? I have discovered the dealership in my research being Rosenthal Chevrolet; Virginia and might have found that in an older article!

I will try to add more first Owners later, when I get back to SoCal!

TCracingCA

For a private enthusiast researcher, I think I got pretty far on figuring these cars out solo!

In a conversation on Facebook Registry, I helped Kevin MacKay add some racing history to his #92 racer, and he said he would share info with me, but then I never asked for it, because it kind of has been a big puzzle! But the 055 is claimed to be the last one of the real 20 found and discovered, so it sounds like they feel that they have the Vins now, but haven't found a few of them yet! All of the conversations I have had, he was the only guy in the know to make me that offer! I kind of would rather see if the collective forum members could complete the list too!

TCracingCA

Ok home, let me explain

The official production count of installed M22s was

29 in 1965
15 in 1966
20 in 1967
80 in 1968
101 in 1969

Therefore just because of their being 20 production 1967 L88s, I personally think that is just a coincidence! I think the 20 was available between the L88 and L89 cars! I could see some getting a non HD transmission for their L88s, just as differing axle ratios were ordered! Some of the axle ratios perform better with a different transmission gear spread! They always have and always will.

The other clue might be the original thoughts that the topic experts back in the day had in the 1970s, where they wrote 16 of the 20 had the competition aluminum heads leaving four cars without them! It took them many years to split that out to 20 and 16, 36 cars total.

Tired, will elaborate in this later! And I do know L88 is a package! The more I read the articles, has raised questions about that!

emccomas

I was going through some old issues of Vette Vues this past weekend, and I came across the issue that featured this car. Interesting story.

Also, I understand that the sliver convertible 15484 was recently reunited with a matching number engine. This may be the same engine that was removed from the car many years ago because of questions / concerns about the authenticity of the engine pad stamp.

TCracingCA

And all of this could be cut and dried! 20 M22s for only 20 L88s could be how it was! I have to see if I have a dealer order sheet for that and year.

And everyone, I am just trying to promote thought and fellow research by throwing stuff up to see if it sticks.trust me I would just like to accept everything and every car! Many things don't make sense, me being the type that has to think their was a method to the madness!

TCracingCA

I can pick up a modern Hot Rod and not find an article that correlates to my eras of passion or that has an article that makes me want to go all modern! So I really enjoy reading the old ones! If I get more senile, I have a big enough collection to feel like I am reading new articles for the next 20 years daily!

On these cars, there has been supposively 3 cars that have been connected up with there original engine and I also heard something about this 4th one!

The cars with the original are (correct me if I am wrong)

The Lyndale Blue car, the #89 racer, and the 12 mile car!

tuxnharley

I thought the M22 was mandatory with the L88 in '67? Noland's book indicates that, and even documents which of them came with what axle ratio!

emccomas

I am pretty sure the 12 mile car did not have it's original engine. A fairly exhaustive search was made for that engine, and it was determined that the engine was sold to a shop that typically decked engines that they build.

I know it had a period correct but blank pad L-88 engine in it when Judski owned it.

I also "think" that Judski's white 67 coupe has it's original engine.

Critter1

That's correct. When the original owner sold the disassembled car to Lincoln's Corvettes, the original disassembled engine was with it. Lincoln sold the car and parts as is.

The 2nd owner reassembled the car but decided it would be easier to just install a new GM L88 short block than it would be to reassemble the original block. A much later short block was installed. (casting numbers and original blocks didn't mean much at that time)

The car went through a few owners (long story) and eventually was sold to Dave Burroughs and Jim Krughoff. David found an un-stamped correct 351 block and assembled it using the components from the newer block. (and my correct 67 L88 cam)

Slightly off topic but when the latest engine was assembled with it's original aluminum heads, it made 520 HP on Peter Guilds dyno. I think Perter still builds Nascar engines to this day.

I painted that engine using a pressure feed system at around 90 PSI and it's still in the car to this day. (with it's correct heavily orange painted exhaust manifolds)

Serious effort was made to find the original block but, as mentioned, the 2nd owner sold it to a local rebuilder in either Minnesota or Wisconsin. (can't remember) That shop owner was contacted and he said that even if that block was here in stock, it would have been decked.

emccomas

So then, what 67 L-88s are we generally convinced still have their original "born with" engines.

The maroon convertible (#18414)
The Lyndale blue convertible (#18426)
The Daytona #89 racer (#21550)
The white Judski coupe (#20407)
The Marina blue coupe (#17076)

That is five. Is the list accurate? Any cars that should be on the list and are not? Any cars on the list that should not be?

TCracingCA

It shows how you can read the article several times, and don't remember the exact details without a refresher. I have my notebook of L88 articles out now! So now Armed and dangerous!