SWCDuke

Of course, the RPO code for the "HD engine" would not have been assigned until all development, testing and final parts design was completed, and the option was approved for release.

All development, testing, and financial accounting would have been accomplished under an engineering work order number. In 1966 no one knew what the released option code would be other than it would probably have a "L" prefix.

Duke

TCracingCA

I use those type of words and expressions because these are stories or comments coming from other sources like Guldstrand, Or the Traco guys! It is therefore based on a memory or story that happened a long time ago, so I have just tried to balance those against things that did get into print back then or substantiated since!
Also I do not have my data, notes, literature out for specific posting most of the times when I have initially joined in on a topic, everything I wrote I will admit is right off of the top of my memory! True maybe not as organized as some of you, I would like to think my memory is decent! But if pushed into a corner, I can go get stuff specifically out, except on those times I have sat with those types of guys! I was taking no notes and had no recorder! I was just enjoying shooting the S$hit!

I attempted to engage them (those kind of guys) on stuff in a way where it was fun and worthwhile to lay a story on me just for my own curiosity in the past, with no thought that I would ever try to relay in the modern any of those stories or tales, or excerpts of what I think I remember being said!
Maybe I don't need to qualify my associations to a guy like Guldstrand or how frequently I had machine work done by Traco! Therefore character flaw! Dick before he had a shop on Jefferson hooked us up with Traco back in about 1963 as per my Father's memory and he was friends with Dick going back into the late 1950's, but true that doesn't do much to validate any claimed tale that I think I had heard or remember! Here this will give you an idea of how often I shopped and talked with Dick! These gave me license, to hang out and just bull$hit with him. I had these out because of Dick's passing! I have built or equipped quite a number of cars with his products! My Traco receipts aren't as plentiful, but I have a lot of those also!

But I hope you guys have appreciated, how close to fitting based on my hearing stories from some of the participants and reading that I have come, having research material also helps, etc! A lot of what I have shared is pieced together, from all kinds of stuff!
I am sure the true researchers or people that hold these stories sacred will still give credence to what they feel!
You and others on here are top historian types some having been running around in the known Corvette circle and are generally in the know individuals! And I am just a very long term Corvette guy coming from a family that has had Corvette since I was actual born! Therefore 55 years in Corvette world, but technically maybe not aware of them till age 4 or 5, so 50+ years! Then I suddenly started to really participate and share stuff that I have taken an interest in over the last 50 years, just in these last bunch of years only!
And I do choose to operate out on the fringe, I truly am not that social, and my sharing- people can either take it or leave it! I hope I am just infusing new blood into a stagnate and dead end Corvette historical happening!

And in the end, I actually don't need to be right about any of it! True I hope I am, or I wasted a whole lot of time!

Ps Dick remembered that it had those side exhausts on it also! L72s had generally the cast iron manifolds! Other rationales, Is Penske had two L88s, so when and where did the second appear? Also if Penske received them at his shop together, don't you think both would have been sent to Traco? Why leave one in the shop and take an L-72 and the Traco L88? In FIA, if the engine was toast, you can't change it during the race! So if it was a spare, won't that have been prepped by Traco also? Etc. But Then the story does mention that something was balance and blueprinted at that time after Guldstrand drove it to PA, so why do that, for test and practice of an L72? especially If it was just to ring out the rest of the car while waiting on the Traco unit, then balancing and blueprinting the engine won't have been needed! and I hope it is agreed that Traco received an aluminum headed one at their place!

TCracingCA

In other threads, I mention HD engines and I "do believe" those got out there starting in 1965! I think that 12/65 CD test at the proving grounds was one of those special competition cars of the 1966 vintage! That was the car with the 8000 rpm special tach that I posted a picture of for you guys!

TCracingCA

I agreed with this, in other threads! The addition of the aluminum heads or the plan caused that re-designation!

I think they had one of those HD cars, added the special hood, that just got prototyped and off to Penske's shop it went! And maybe not yet with the aluminum heads!

TCracingCA

I have never ever heard any development or thought to produce the aluminum heads for NASCAR (I would have to dig into my Nascar stuff to say for sure), but for road racing and drag racing! I personally think the L89 was targeting Drag Racing, and the complete L88 package for Road Racing! True other departments got their ration of special engines!

PAmotorman

here is the lists I have.

TCracingCA

Also I have always pushed for 21 1967 L88s as the green one (subject of many articles) with the prototype data plates had prototype data plates!

We have a good group of guys here, to maybe get this hashed out! Some very high end historians and researchers, etc.! Me being the only suspect individual in the group!

W Guy

TC,
Have you seen the recent book about James Garner's automotive exploits? It has interesting reading about his involvement with the 1968 & 1969 L-88s as well as Dick Guldstrand and others.

Verne

Critter1

I have those same sheets, Clem. And more from 66 and 67.

Note the unique parts for L88 passenger car in the listing. A 3884117 Holley carburetor, list #3417. (the Corvette L88 carburetor was a #3418)

The cold air elbow to air cleaner from the dash panel, part number 3881804 was for full size passenger car/NASCAR.

There were TWO unique L88 only road draft tubes for Passenger car and Corvette. You know, that weird canister thing with the long tube off the left valve cover. I still have one for passenger car. Canister portion visible in photo below.

Also, the picture below is an L88 for passenger car/NASCAR. Note the unique idler pulley that was pass car only.

By the way, the option for the 66 Corvette WAS to be listed as L88. If you look in an AIM for 66, the L88 option is shown, but later canceled. As I recall, it was canceled in November of 1965, not long after start of 66 production.

TCracingCA

Yes I bought that and the newest Penske racing book written mostly by his top mechanic! The only book I keep forgetting to buy is the Bob Riley book!

PAmotorman

I am sure that back then NASCAR was more important than SCCA to GM racing

PAmotorman

I was told the aluminum heads had too many problems to release them. one was the guides were moving in the heads.

TCracingCA

After the Mystery Motors, the NASCAR scrutinizers' were more on their game. They specifically wanted proof of production. I am sure some proving ground stuff went down, but since the aluminum headed engine wasn't yet in production, I doubt that they made it onto the track in those early years, especially since the competitors didn't have their own. Yes stories abound about painting the aluminum units, but Chevrolet quickly saw that the iron heads still produced more hp and reliably. The Yunick car was DQd. I would have to look at my stuff on it's entire racing exploits. I would have to run out the doings of those loyal Chevrolet runners (Rex White being one of the last of the loyal). Chevrolet soured many racers, by pulling the plug on those earlier promised engines. Chevrolet during this time period lost a lot of loyal Chevrolet customers. Even the 1967 L88 initially was storming the tracks, but the latter ones kind of mostly didn't end up on the tracks.

Yunick quickly wasn't a fan of the big block, and never truly became one. Even the Cam Am guys in that year switched back to small blocks or never went to the big blocks. Penske didn't continue on with the big blocks, he fitted one in the Lola and then changed back, but mainly because he connected into the Camaro program, and did the Trans Am. In the USRRC McLaren they went back to the big block, because most of the bugs were worked out by then!

Bill Thomas early was passed the torch on the big block development, but him and Nickey kind of were old news by about 1968, but still fighting for their place in the top tier Chevrolet insider operations.

TCracingCA

That is common knowledge. I have seen a number of Jan 1967 dated aluminum heads and I have seen then some March 1967s. I had asked previously about the earliest ones others have seen, but didn't get too many replies on that!

I should sequence the L89 cars intermixed with the L88 to see production date windows. The Yenko L88 was the first on the tracks, beating the Delorenzo car, even though that car was a lower serial number and known to be the first. It makes sense that it is the first one, because of the insider connection. And the first ones were mostly the ones that went racing like the Yenko and the LeMans car! Maybe if you guys remain nice to me, I will post up the raw stock L88 in the Dana Chevrolet garage, about to be molested by Guldstrand with his drill for you guys!

PS come to think about things, I know damn well there is stuff in print on the aluminum head failures in practice at the 1966 Daytona! The believed L-72 engine (practice engine)! I will start my search for that!

PAmotorman

I read someplace penske switched from aluminum heads to cast iron with their TRACO built engines. that might have been 1967 corvettes

TCracingCA

In the other thread, I gave all of the dates for the race. The aluminum heads were pulled prior to the race at Daytona 1966 and the car ran with standard Traco Iron Headed greys!!!! Then again at Sebring 1966, both cars ended up running again with standard Traco Greys! They just knew the aluminum units weren't going to make it.

If you also parallel the developments of the Chaparral and McLarens, develop ties into the goings on as a whole. McLaren was still running Small Blocks after trials with the new Big Blocks. They had went with Bartz, who had left Traco! Penske and Chaparral stayed with Traco! The Big Block winged Chaparral ran at the 1967 LeMans, in a detuned configuration and rpm limited. It was a DNF. The previous 2D was the last successful small block Chaparral. Chaparral also took one of the Traco employees, who pretty much built their engines in the same time period.

All of this racing stuff was rolling back down to the Chevrolet Engineers!

71scgc

PA motorman,
On the 427 lists you posted, on page 4 it makes mention of a previous E.S.L. 5-18-65 for heavy duty conversion parts for 396 RPO L-78.

Do you perhaps have that list? I'm just curious. Also, any knowledge you guys have regarding that.

Maybe that's something for a different thread. I wasn't aware of any such work done on L-78. Would love the education on it.

Thanks!!
Carter

PAmotorman

no I do not have that list but you can bore your original corvette 396 engine out to 4.250 same as the 427 and use all the 427 parts.

TCracingCA

All of my recent small block guy tearing into the big block history has led me down interesting paths!
From the mystery motor designer feeling like they ruined his engine when it evolved into the MK IV 396! They had it out there getting testing and development! Even the mystery motors went through both 427 and 396 configurations!
In studying this stuff I like the drag 396 details related to what Bill Thomas was doing! His planned big block super Cheetah! I like the 1965 Nassau big block install story into the 2C chassis, that was a fail! First it won't fit, so they cut the roll hoop out of the #66 car and modded in a head hoop only! This was Chevrolet's prototype practice attempt to counter what they knew Ford was planning to run, being their MK II 427 cars!


So what you are looking at, for the experts- I will educate you is the Chaparral team testing in racing an L88!!!!!!!!!! You can see at this December 1965 Nassau race the small block car #65 and that cars roll hoop vice the L88 #66 Chaparral's hoop and larger big block velocity stacks! A race HD block, fitted with the aluminum heads! Because it/they had big problems, it was sidelined for further work!
So Chevrolet had a lot of catching up to do! So the Chaparrals with the aero and winged closed coupe bodies showed at Daytona 1966 with the small block! So Jim Hall couldn't wait on Chevrolet, so the engineers turned to Penske and the new GT entry!!!!

TCracingCA

A little more trivia for everyone!

Penske actually stated that he thought what he was getting and got from Chevrolet was a 396 Corvette!
To his surprise and delight was a 427!
The GT winner was sold with engine!
The engine from the Grand Sport was installed in the Lola T-70 but they were driving it with the oil gauge as they had to do at Daytona and Sebring! That Lola fitting was after the Daytona and Sebring and going purely off memory, did three race appearances and switched back to the Traco small block for the balance of the 1966 season because it had problems! After Hufstader personally tried to solve the oil pressure problem on the Penske Lola himself! He tried numerous oil pan, pickup, wind age tray mods etc..

Also I have not run across any of these earliest aluminum big block heads that weren't hogged out modified! Meaning someone was probably trying to get more power out of them for racing! The day someone finds and shows me a pre 1967 head that is unported is the day that I might believe it is a possible production head! If any dated 1966 aluminum heads turn up, any would probably belong to one of the race cars discussed! The Holy Grail would be finding one of these dated 1966 aluminum heads!

On the Yunick Chevelle and NASCAR, I am checking on stuff related to Boehm, Gates, Balmer, Turner, Musser, etc. And the only mention of aluminum was having one of the Chaparral road racing prototype aluminum units on the shop work bench at near the end of the 1966 season!

And lastly, true they all were supposed to keep a lid on talking about the Penske 427 Corvette and that 427 engine, and if anyone asked, it was just a production engine! And guys even 50 years later here on the forum are still buying into the Chevrolet is not in racing, just a production engine cover story!