Alignment / turning after borgeson question
12-14-2016, 09:29 AM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Alignment / turning after borgeson question
i admit I've been driving the 64 after my borgeson swap lo these many months without the prescribed alignment.
Shame on me- I had thought that most of what I would be wanting was the increased caster (which I do want) but I need to do my control arm bushings and ball joints (probably going with van steel exchanged units). So I put it off.
Trouble is, my turning radius on left hand turns is noticeably poorer than right turns. I did my dead level best to center the box at the high point in its rotation as prescribed and written about on the forum.
My question is this- could this be an issue that is corrected by the alignment shop with changes to both tie rod ends? My mind is trying to get around suspension design aspects I've not yet had to deal with.
Of note- 1) I do not seem to have any rubbing of bodywork on right hand turns, or at least in casual driving i haven't experienced this. 2) my car was a manual steering car with all the same manual linkage 3) the borgeson box had been installed on a c3 with power steering however I used my old pitman arm correct from my c2. 3) my wheel is not precisely centered but close, however I need to adjust it somewhat slightly (don't see any effect on this down the system) 4) the problem is obviously affecting me at very slow speeds when I want to turn it to lock to the left
these are all novice type questions I know, and I hope I have enough background to see what I'm dealing with. I will get it in for the control arms and alignment but I'd like to have a rudimentary understanding of what might fix this one area (turning radius)
benton
Shame on me- I had thought that most of what I would be wanting was the increased caster (which I do want) but I need to do my control arm bushings and ball joints (probably going with van steel exchanged units). So I put it off.
Trouble is, my turning radius on left hand turns is noticeably poorer than right turns. I did my dead level best to center the box at the high point in its rotation as prescribed and written about on the forum.
My question is this- could this be an issue that is corrected by the alignment shop with changes to both tie rod ends? My mind is trying to get around suspension design aspects I've not yet had to deal with.
Of note- 1) I do not seem to have any rubbing of bodywork on right hand turns, or at least in casual driving i haven't experienced this. 2) my car was a manual steering car with all the same manual linkage 3) the borgeson box had been installed on a c3 with power steering however I used my old pitman arm correct from my c2. 3) my wheel is not precisely centered but close, however I need to adjust it somewhat slightly (don't see any effect on this down the system) 4) the problem is obviously affecting me at very slow speeds when I want to turn it to lock to the left
these are all novice type questions I know, and I hope I have enough background to see what I'm dealing with. I will get it in for the control arms and alignment but I'd like to have a rudimentary understanding of what might fix this one area (turning radius)
benton
Last edited by ChattanoogaJSB; 12-14-2016 at 09:31 AM.
12-14-2016, 09:32 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I guess I should make clear the turning radius at any reasonably speed traveling isn't affecting the car- however in tight parking situations it's when I notice the deficiency.
12-14-2016, 09:37 AM
#3
Team Owner
When you turn lock to lock...is hit hitting the stops on the lower A frames...
12-14-2016, 09:53 AM
#4
Drifting
Turn the wheel all the way to one side. Mark the top of the steering wheel with a piece of tape. Then turn the wheel all the way to the other lock, counting turns, and again put another piece of tape on the top of the steering wheel. Now try to center the steering wheel by counting half the turns from lock to lock. Do it from both sides. The top of the steering wheel should be such that the two pieces of tape should be equally off center, like at 10 and 2 o'clock. Once the steering wheel is centered, check your front wheels to see if they are pointing straight ahead.
Gerry
12-14-2016, 01:05 PM
#5
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I will check both these when I get home.
Jack- based on the change I believe I will find the right turn stop IS hitting and the left turn is not.
Gerry- I'm tracking you. Thanks guys!
benton
(side questions- do you remove springs from frame with a hefty floor jack on a small block as I've read? Once I have some satisfaction on my original question I'm going to prepare to do the control arms with Moog/van steel and tie rod ends before the real alignment. Also with the slotted cross shafts)
Jack- based on the change I believe I will find the right turn stop IS hitting and the left turn is not.
Gerry- I'm tracking you. Thanks guys!
benton
(side questions- do you remove springs from frame with a hefty floor jack on a small block as I've read? Once I have some satisfaction on my original question I'm going to prepare to do the control arms with Moog/van steel and tie rod ends before the real alignment. Also with the slotted cross shafts)
12-14-2016, 02:32 PM
#6
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This is a fairly common issue. Mine was the same way. I drove it that way for a long time too.
Call Borgeson, they sent me a different pitman arm with the splines slightly clocked differently to allow the arm to be dead straight ahead when box is centered. It's only a slight movement and frankly you could probably do a little grinder work on the "master" splines to allow the original one to be re-clocked.
Some folks will screw one tie rod assy all the way in nearly and the other way out to get things closer...but the right way is to get the pitman arm in the correct position on the box.
Once you get it operating with the box truly centered it will have a better feel also.
JIM
Call Borgeson, they sent me a different pitman arm with the splines slightly clocked differently to allow the arm to be dead straight ahead when box is centered. It's only a slight movement and frankly you could probably do a little grinder work on the "master" splines to allow the original one to be re-clocked.
Some folks will screw one tie rod assy all the way in nearly and the other way out to get things closer...but the right way is to get the pitman arm in the correct position on the box.
Once you get it operating with the box truly centered it will have a better feel also.
JIM
12-14-2016, 03:30 PM
#7
Team Owner
I will check both these when I get home.
Jack- based on the change I believe I will find the right turn stop IS hitting and the left turn is not.
Gerry- I'm tracking you. Thanks guys!
benton
(side questions- do you remove springs from frame with a hefty floor jack on a small block as I've read? Once I have some satisfaction on my original question I'm going to prepare to do the control arms with Moog/van steel and tie rod ends before the real alignment. Also with the slotted cross shafts)
Jack- based on the change I believe I will find the right turn stop IS hitting and the left turn is not.
Gerry- I'm tracking you. Thanks guys!
benton
(side questions- do you remove springs from frame with a hefty floor jack on a small block as I've read? Once I have some satisfaction on my original question I'm going to prepare to do the control arms with Moog/van steel and tie rod ends before the real alignment. Also with the slotted cross shafts)
This is what i made/used to remove spring...
Remove shock absorber
insert tool and tighten up
put jack under A-frame and jack it up a little tighten tool some more
Remove lover ball joint
Slowly lower jack
Unscrew tool but keep jack in place to help lower A-frame...
12-15-2016, 11:26 AM
#8
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Interesting replies, all! And a big thank you as always. As suspected the left side doesn't hit the stop, about a thumb width or so from it. Followed Jerry's advice and the steering wheel centered (based on rotations from lock to lock, not the "look" of the column) leads to an asymmetrical result with both tapes facing 3 and 5 o'clock when the wheels are truly centered. Counting rotations the wheel marks are 5 o'clock and about 7 o'clock, which jives with what I "Feel" I'm missing in a lefthand turn.
Note that I have reclocked the column itself into the rag joint and my wheel is still "just ever so" off center, another fix I've been needing to do.
Borgeson acted like they'd never heard of a pitman arm revised to correct this issue when I called them, though they were characteristically nice. I suspect it's going to come down to having this fixed after the control arms are R&R'd along with tie rod ends.
I should mention that I did have the drag link loose at the end where it mounts to the frame, when I was trying to get the drag link off the old steering pitman arm. I doubt that is affecting anything, but worth mentioning.
Overall the front end of the car is really showing it's age, and is probably original and for safety and enjoyment I'll be moving the control arms up the list to just after Christmas.
Jack- I like your tool, if you have a chance tell me where you found the upper mount with the collar on it?
And thanks to everyone again! So far the Borgeson unit, coming to me used, has been a PIA I wish I'd never done, but with an alignment and more caster I hope it comes full circle.
Benton
Note that I have reclocked the column itself into the rag joint and my wheel is still "just ever so" off center, another fix I've been needing to do.
Borgeson acted like they'd never heard of a pitman arm revised to correct this issue when I called them, though they were characteristically nice. I suspect it's going to come down to having this fixed after the control arms are R&R'd along with tie rod ends.
I should mention that I did have the drag link loose at the end where it mounts to the frame, when I was trying to get the drag link off the old steering pitman arm. I doubt that is affecting anything, but worth mentioning.
Overall the front end of the car is really showing it's age, and is probably original and for safety and enjoyment I'll be moving the control arms up the list to just after Christmas.
Jack- I like your tool, if you have a chance tell me where you found the upper mount with the collar on it?
And thanks to everyone again! So far the Borgeson unit, coming to me used, has been a PIA I wish I'd never done, but with an alignment and more caster I hope it comes full circle.
Benton
12-15-2016, 12:14 PM
#9
Team Owner
Interesting replies, all! And a big thank you as always. As suspected the left side doesn't hit the stop, about a thumb width or so from it. Followed Jerry's advice and the steering wheel centered (based on rotations from lock to lock, not the "look" of the column) leads to an asymmetrical result with both tapes facing 3 and 5 o'clock when the wheels are truly centered. Counting rotations the wheel marks are 5 o'clock and about 7 o'clock, which jives with what I "Feel" I'm missing in a lefthand turn.
Note that I have reclocked the column itself into the rag joint and my wheel is still "just ever so" off center, another fix I've been needing to do.
Borgeson acted like they'd never heard of a pitman arm revised to correct this issue when I called them, though they were characteristically nice. I suspect it's going to come down to having this fixed after the control arms are R&R'd along with tie rod ends.
I should mention that I did have the drag link loose at the end where it mounts to the frame, when I was trying to get the drag link off the old steering pitman arm. I doubt that is affecting anything, but worth mentioning.
Overall the front end of the car is really showing it's age, and is probably original and for safety and enjoyment I'll be moving the control arms up the list to just after Christmas.
Jack- I like your tool, if you have a chance tell me where you found the upper mount with the collar on it?
And thanks to everyone again! So far the Borgeson unit, coming to me used, has been a PIA I wish I'd never done, but with an alignment and more caster I hope it comes full circle.
Benton
Note that I have reclocked the column itself into the rag joint and my wheel is still "just ever so" off center, another fix I've been needing to do.
Borgeson acted like they'd never heard of a pitman arm revised to correct this issue when I called them, though they were characteristically nice. I suspect it's going to come down to having this fixed after the control arms are R&R'd along with tie rod ends.
I should mention that I did have the drag link loose at the end where it mounts to the frame, when I was trying to get the drag link off the old steering pitman arm. I doubt that is affecting anything, but worth mentioning.
Overall the front end of the car is really showing it's age, and is probably original and for safety and enjoyment I'll be moving the control arms up the list to just after Christmas.
Jack- I like your tool, if you have a chance tell me where you found the upper mount with the collar on it?
And thanks to everyone again! So far the Borgeson unit, coming to me used, has been a PIA I wish I'd never done, but with an alignment and more caster I hope it comes full circle.
Benton
I went out and measure the all thread @16" long x 1/2" dia...That "collar" is from the rear snubber bushing...the big rubber and big washer is from the end of the rear spring...