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My original 59 brakes worked fine today. A guy pulled out of a side street forcing me to hit the brakes hard. I stopped from 40mph with all wheels locked. He still didn't see me until he heard my tires squealing. Great breaks 59 navy
Good thing the brakes weren't wet. Though metallic shoes don't have the water problem, but can be noisy.
I used metallic shoes for while back in the late '70s. I will say that the hotter they got, the better they stopped.
Excellent evaluation, and I'm with you. Give me the deficiencies of archaic equipment. They remind me of when I was a young buck. It's a big part of the joy of driving these relics of a different time (for me).
Hmmm - so what we need is the automotive equivalent of Viagra for drum brakes..........to prevent that "fade"!
.........yes and don't forget, do it for the children and for jpeace of mind!
And last but not least.................One car length back for every ten miles per hour. Seems 90% of the drivers out there never even heard of that! Let alone drive like it.
.........yes and don't forget, do it for the children and for jpeace of mind!
And last but not least.................One car length back for every ten miles per hour. Seems 90% of the drivers out there never even heard of that! Let alone drive like it.
You must be joking, or you harken back to the days of yore when folks had two hands on the wheel (was it 3:00 & 9:00 or 2:00 & 10:00?), used turn indicators well before a turn & not while making one....this could be a whole 'nother thread but it's like buffing a turd to talk about it. Cell phones have all but eliminated any semblance of anxiety free antique car motoring.
You must be joking, or you harken back to the days of yore when folks had two hands on the wheel (was it 3:00 & 9:00 or 2:00 & 10:00?), used turn indicators well before a turn & not while making one....this could be a whole 'nother thread but it's like buffing a turd to talk about it. Cell phones have all but eliminated any semblance of anxiety free antique car motoring.
Dan
I believe that car following distance rule of 1-car length/each 10 miles an hour was obsolesced.
You should have at least a 3 second interval between yourself and the car in front of you; e.g. 1-Missippi, 2-Missippi..etc.. More is better.
Doesn't sound a bit different to me...as I said, you have to know what you're doing and the brakes will work -- excellently...
Guess what ? I use the same techniques above in my 2013 Toyota Tundra when mountain driving...
Hi Frankie,
I just can't agree that this "know what you're doing" algorithm has any place in my driving world. Why would I ever want that situation in a real world (of texting teenagers and old farts).
My 63 Z06 had arguably the best, most advanced, most sophisticated DRUM brakes available in 1963, and Bob Bondurant, Paul Reinhart and others told me (at vintage races) that they would "Kill" for disc brakes.
I raced on mine for a few years, and quickly determined that if I continued, I would DIE!
In my opinion, the best rule change ever in Vintage was orchestrated by Vic Edelbrock, who persuaded Steve Earle to allow stock 65 and later disc brakes for ALL C2 Corvettes as it leveled the playing field.
The difference (to me) is that (contrary to what you wrote above), I simply "NEVER" have to even think about my brakes when racing, because they are always there, and always work flawlessly. My Pro driving partner (Indy driver) John Martin agrees. Best of luck to ya
PS By the way, drum shoes must be arced in to match the radius of the drum. No one today has equipment to do that (except Tom Parsons) and no one (but Tom) knows how to do it by hand.
Last edited by 63Corvette; 08-22-2017 at 03:04 PM.
Wow! Must be a very busy, critical life. Yet you have time to spend on the internet? What's your line of work, pediatric cancer, or brain surgery, or maybe combating international terrorism? Thanks for sharing some of your time with us here on the CF.
I would respectfully like to respond to this one.
Tom Parsons recently took the time to completely disassemble and rebuild one of my racing M22 gearboxes in just a few days so that my racecar would be available for it's next race......and he did it for a VERY reasonable price and with "brain surgeon" quality.
I am deeply indebted to him. Thanks Tom
You'll be in jail for reckless driving long before you're kill these GM brakes.
I recognize those metallic brake shoes. Fabulous for slowing you down at the end a 1/4 mile run, unlike normal shoes, which applied at 120 MPH, don't really seem to much of anything, the metallics start warming up and it feels like you just got snared by the landing cable during landing on an aircraft carrier, you just start stopping faster and faster.
I would respectfully like to respond to this one.
Tom Parsons recently took the time to completely disassemble and rebuild one of my racing M22 gearboxes i
Originally Posted by 63Corvette
Nope! you will be in your grave........just ask anyone who has raced (or street driven) them!
You are the only one here that has to have the "racer's edge".
Since I ran them on the street for years and never wore them out you can ask me about them. When I bought my new car in 1965, I bought a set of the sintered metallic shoes and put them on a shelf. Recently, I restored the car and installed that brand new set.
I once tried mine out when my car was new. 0-100-0 in 20 seconds, three consecutuve times so the time elapsed was just a little over a minute total for all three stops. I could have done it quicker but the bias ply tires and the fact that by the third stop, I was leary of touching the brakes very hard because they would easily lock the tires at 100 mph with very light pressure.
IIRC, even running through deep water didn't faze them. I'm not dead. I knew what I had and drove accordingly.
I've put on quite a few drum brake (standard) shoes, both on on unworn drums all the way to really worn drums. I've had a few drums turned. I've never had the shoes "arc'd" to fit the drums. Contrary to what I continue to read on this forum that arcing the shoes is a must for smooth, even braking, I don't seem to have any problems about skipping that myth.
Now, if you're a commercial shop today, they take the easy way to avoid any potential comebacks. They give you brand new wheel cylinders (not rebuilt), brand new drums and all the brake hardware. It's a colossal waste of money for the consumer in most case but since the customer doesn't know any better, shame on him and his wallet.
Fake news, Impossible that decades old technology would work on todays roads. Just do a search on the interwebs and you will see how many owners are "upgrading" their drum brakes for "safety" reasons.
By the way, one of my work cars weighs 35,000 lbs and has drum brakes all around, stops just fine.
Interesting discussion, but there is another consideration that hasn't been mentioned. Brakes, weather they be disc or drum, have done all they can do when they lock up and stop the wheels. The brakes do not stop the car, the brakes stop the wheels , the tires stop the car.
When the brakes have "locked" the wheels ,then it is the friction of the tire on the pavement that will determine the stopping distance. When skidding to a stop, your fate will be determined by the cleanliness of the pavement and the quality and friction of your tires, which will rapidly be declining as they go up in smoke.
Disc or drums are more than adequate to stop the wheels on a 3100lb. car. More important is to have a tire that will stop the car, before the brakes apply all their force and lock the wheels. Drum brakes got their "bad rap" because they were paired with bias tires. The coefficient of friction of a modern radial tire is sufficient to stop a 3100lb. car before the point of lock-up. My 64 with manual drum brakes stops on the proverbial dime, with enough inertia to put the passenger through the windshield, if not buckled up.
It is the Pirelli tires that stop the wheels and the car , when pressure on the brake pedal suggests it would be prudent to do so. I think of them as my bolt-on, passive, pneumatic, no tech, anti lock / anti skid system
We are talking about 2 different things.. Not sure what to call them, maybe "stopping" and "braking".
For stops: Yes, you're right - when cold and fresh, drums and discs will both lock the wheels.. after that, it does not matter what type of brakes you have.
But for repeated slowdowns or stops, as in racing, or just driving on hilly terrain, heat builds up and reduces the effectiveness of drum brakes.
When the brakes have already 'faded', you won't be able to lock the wheels (stopping), and it will take longer to slow down (braking).
The major reason discs don't fade is the rotor is exposed to fresh air, allowing it to shed the heat much better than inside a closed drum.
I will say the shoes on my car are from the 70's.. I imagine the compounds have got better in the past 40 years.
In trucking, large 18 wheel trucks, most brakes are still drum brakes today. In the past 5 years the law has mandated a new RSD law. Reduced stopping distance. In the past the truck was allowed 355 feet to stop from 60 MPH. The new standard is 250 feet.
All the OEM big trucks have to meet this standard. The test is a back to back 60 to zero test repeated 6 times to get approval.
In these tests the trucks actually stop better with each stop and normally the 6th stop gives the shortest stop. The Drum brake equipped trucks normally stop in 218 to 225 feet.
They shoot for 10% under the OEM distance requirement of 250 feet because if you fail the test you can't sell the truck.
If these tests continued to 8 stops, 10 stops or 15 stops at some point the drums would be so hot they could not pull any more heat from the shoes and the truck would lose its brake power and might stop in 450 feet but at 6 stops they are pretty strong.
FYI: in this exact test the same truck equipped with Disc Brakes stops in 200 feet and the drivers state the disc brake system is much more predictable and gives them more confidence in the stops. That is driver feedback.
To meet these standards the big rigs now have wider brake drums, the friction material has been upgraded, the brake system has many improvements and The front steer axles have been upgraded so they carry more of the stopping load than in the past.
Drum brakes can work very well and they are cheaper to build and install so they will be around for a while going forward. Just not on passenger cars.
Around here if you allow more than a car length at 70 miles per hour, before you count to two someone will cut between you and that car in front of you.
Around here if you allow more than a car length at 70 miles per hour, before you count to two someone will cut between you and that car in front of you.
Technically, that's called an IMG (Idiot Maneuvering Gap).
If YOU don't tailgate, some @hole that failed physics 101 (F=M x A) will slide in a space that is a car length + 3" in front of you. Usually in a little POS that I could run over in my truck.
Years ago, I would ride his/her bumper, flip them off and honk the horn.
Now I just drop back, keep my cool AND my safe following distance....I don't want shot and I don't want to wreck and I have nowhere I have to be in that big a hurry.
On the flip side I've had folks so close on the back of my Tundra in a ricer I literally couldn't see them out the mirror past the tailgate - I run my backup camera in the truck full time for that reason.
Nobody will argue with Tom Parson's ability to fix/rebuild a ton of old components; certainly not me...but he's not the only one that can.
Bill Pilon on this board has brake arcing equipment from the old days. GTOGuy might. Guess what, EVERY member does; its called your feet. After a few hundred miles the brakes will arc themselves but it takes some careful driving during that period until things take a 'set'.
I don't believe I disagreed with a thing about brake fade vis a vis disc brakes vs drums - there is nothing to argue about there. However, there are still racers that use the drums in vintage first gen Shelbys and stay out of the wall - you simply don't outdrive your technology.
My 5'2" 105 lb Mom drove the huge 4,500 lb Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles of the day with drum brakes and single master cylinders sitting on a phone book with a suicide **** to help with the non-power steering and no seat belts in Pittsburgh snow storms with us kids making her life hell in the back seat.
Ya deal with what ya gotta deal with.
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 08-23-2017 at 08:43 AM.
Around here if you allow more than a car length at 70 miles per hour, before you count to two someone will cut between you and that car in front of you.
Is the fix for that better brakes, better tires, quicker reaction time or a reckless driving ticket? Which might yield the most permanent results?
Is the fix for that better brakes, better tires, quicker reaction time or a reckless driving ticket? Which might yield the most permanent results?
None of the above will fix anything given that automotive performance has increased exponentially over the past decades. Tesla with "ludicrous" mode, Chrysler Hellcats, these are cars with performance that well exceed the capabilities of its average driver.
I'm on an interstate every day to and from work. The **** I see people pull never ceases to amaze me. I pray for my wife & kids who use the same highway. And my Corvette is NEVER used on an interstate, only on back roads and at times in which I feel the threat of post-pubescent texting operators is lessened. (Sat & Sun mornings before 11 AM). Unless you live in the bucolic countryside, this is suburban realty.
08-22-2017, 10:31 AM
