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Where the hoop gets locked into rear support bars.
Close up of where hoop gets locked into rear support bars.
View of roll bar from passenger door.
There is a pad welded under the car that these get bolted into. You need to have the car where you want it centered because the blocks that get welded in hug either side of the car body. There really isn’t any play to move the body relative to the chassis.
Originally Posted by vjjack04
Thanks for the info. Do you have any more pictures such as how the two front bars mount to the floor? Also you obviously have it bolted to the frame at the back, any pictures of references for that? Thanks.
here you go.....there are pads welded to the frame that the roll bar is attached to. NHRA regulations require a pad of so many square inches to be bolted to. Grab a NHRA rule book and you will see the requirements.
You can see the bolts that are attached to the pad for ease of removal.
On both sides once you remove the two bolts that lock the bars together you can see above how the main hoop gets pulled forward for removal on both sides.
Are there any 4 or 5 or more point Street Legal Seat Belts Manufactured that meet Federal Safety Laws for use on the street?
Yes, 1.
Why only 1.
1. Federal Law requires all seat belts used on the Street, to have a Single release Red Button with one word on it, "RELEASE" so Emergency Personal can uncouple belts quickly. Racing Bodies rules don't require that.
2. Federal Law requires all 3 or 4 point seat belts to use Anti Submarine Technology to prevent your body from sliding underneath seat belt in a collision.
Ever wonder why a 3 point seat belt system in a modern car allows your upper torso to move forward x - amount? That's to allow for locking you waist around center belt. A 4 point belt needs to use similar means to do this or you need to use 5th point belt on street also, to prevent your body from sliding under the lap belt in a collision.
3. Largest market for multi point seat belts is racing/performance, not street so manufactures don't have to meet Federal Standards that includes crash testing also, to prove their 4 point belts are designed to not allow human body to submarine under the lap belt. .
So who makes them?
Clue, it's not a US company.
My current build has a 4 point removal Roll Bar in it. Comes apart in 2 pieces so it can be removed from car. Only takes one wrench to remove an install bolts holding it together.
Last edited by Poorhousenext; 07-19-2018 at 08:33 PM.
Are there any 4 or 5 or more point Street Legal Seat Belts Manufactured that meet Federal Safety Laws for use on the street?
Yes, 1.
Why only 1.
1. Federal Law requires all seat belts used on the Street, to have a Single release Red Button with one word on it, "RELEASE" so Emergency Personal can uncouple belts quickly. Racing Bodies rules don't require that.
2. Federal Law requires all 3 or 4 point seat belts to use Anti Submarine Technology to prevent your body from sliding underneath seat belt in a collision.
Ever wonder why a 3 point seat belt system in a modern car allows your upper torso to move forward x - amount? That's to allow for locking you waist around center belt. A 4 point belt needs to use similar means to do this or you need to use 5th point belt on street also, to prevent your body from sliding under the lap belt in a collision.
3. Largest market for multi point seat belts is racing/performance, not street so manufactures don't have to meet Federal Standards that includes crash testing also, to prove their 4 point belts are designed to not allow human body to submarine under the lap belt. .
So who makes them?
Clue, it's not a US company.
My current build has a 4 point removal Roll Bar in it. Comes apart in 2 pieces so it can be removed from car. Only takes one wrench to remove an install bolts holding it together.
Restraint is a system, and should be treated as a system, not as fashionable additions to a marginal cockpit.
The seat is the most important part of a restraint system, the foundation of the system.
The seat should not separate from the vehicle body easier than the restraint belt system (anchors to steel is preferred to stock fiberglass).
The seat needs to be rigid with a head rest. Your body may be restrained in a stock seat, but your head will whip (even with all the safety gear, aka. Earnhardt Sr.).
Side bolsters and a lap belt work to hold your butt and torso in place, better than a four point with the flat stock seats (is the goal driver control, or fashion).
Leather looks sharp and cleans easy, but fire resistant velour will hold you better and is cooler for long drives.
A seat headrest is not a roll bar (if you go over it will scrape away just like a head if you cannot duck).
Cages and bars are good for competition, and need room for a helmet and padding.
Anchor a cage to steel (like the frame plates shown in the photos).
A helmet impacting a bar will ring your bell, and a bare head impact is worse.
Hand and arm restraints.
An arm outside the car in an impact is a broken arm (those window nets work).
When an arm has an impact battle with the cage, the cage wins every time (arm bungees on the steering wheel).
If you can sit in the seat with loose belts and your body/arms/knees or head/helmet can touch something, pad the something (because you will hit it).
When i was off-road racing with a team, the people who got hurt in the cars were a crew chief and a guest "ringer" driver while belted in the five point harness. Both thought they would take a quick test ride. The crew chief broke an arm on the cage while rolling during a suspension test without the window net buckled up. The guest driver rung his bell on the cage, testing a jump without a helmet. Both accidents took place on roads and course sections where we drove our chase vehicles with factory three point restraints with no helmets and nothing but factory padded interiors. During races I can only remember one damaging interior impact, even with rolling the cars a number of times. A co-driver took out a long multi-panel wink-mirror with his helmet during the Mint 400. Repeat hits took out the helmet shield and right side mirror brackets, and was smacking his forehead, all because he could not tighten the D-rings enough while buckled in. The driver eventually found one of our remote pits to remove the mirror and co-driver.
Put some thought into what you plan to have when the restraint system is completed.
Restraint is a system, and should be treated as a system, not as fashionable additions to a marginal cockpit.
The seat is the most important part of a restraint system, the foundation of the system.
The seat should not separate from the vehicle body easier than the restraint belt system (anchors to steel is preferred to stock fiberglass).
The seat needs to be rigid with a head rest. Your body may be restrained in a stock seat, but your head will whip (even with all the safety gear, aka. Earnhardt Sr.).
Side bolsters and a lap belt work to hold your butt and torso in place, better than a four point with the flat stock seats (is the goal driver control, or fashion).
Leather looks sharp and cleans easy, but fire resistant velour will hold you better and is cooler for long drives.
A seat headrest is not a roll bar (if you go over it will scrape away just like a head if you cannot duck).
Cages and bars are good for competition, and need room for a helmet and padding.
Anchor a cage to steel (like the frame plates shown in the photos).
A helmet impacting a bar will ring your bell, and a bare head impact is worse.
Hand and arm restraints.
An arm outside the car in an impact is a broken arm (those window nets work).
When an arm has an impact battle with the cage, the cage wins every time (arm bungees on the steering wheel).
If you can sit in the seat with loose belts and your body/arms/knees or head/helmet can touch something, pad the something (because you will hit it).
When i was off-road racing with a team, the people who got hurt in the cars were a crew chief and a guest "ringer" driver while belted in the five point harness. Both thought they would take a quick test ride. The crew chief broke an arm on the cage while rolling during a suspension test without the window net buckled up. The guest driver rung his bell on the cage, testing a jump without a helmet. Both accidents took place on roads and course sections where we drove our chase vehicles with factory three point restraints with no helmets and nothing but factory padded interiors. During races I can only remember one damaging interior impact, even with rolling the cars a number of times. A co-driver took out a long multi-panel wink-mirror with his helmet during the Mint 400. Repeat hits took out the helmet shield and right side mirror brackets, and was smacking his forehead, all because he could not tighten the D-rings enough while buckled in. The driver eventually found one of our remote pits to remove the mirror and co-driver.
Put some thought into what you plan to have when the restraint system is completed.
Interesting. You sure some bailing wire, duct tape and crazy glue won't work? Just kidding brother.
Interesting. You sure some bailing wire, duct tape and crazy glue won't work? Just kidding brother.
I have watched your 67' project creep from the initial stock frame to the SRIII configuration with the LS drivetrain.
From your question about restraints, and your history of sweating the details, I thought you must be gathering interior ideas. Having a clean custom tub to work from offers you options that the stock frame and tub cannot offer.
If you have not selected seats, start with something comfortable that will hold you in (I have SCAT seats that fit very well, and are more comfortable than race seats). Think about seat mounting cross bars or a sub frame that incorporates a shared structure for the seat bolts and the belt anchors, and a harness bar, if you can follow the floor contour up the tub's sides to make something work without getting in your way . The seat and all restraint system mounts, should tie into the tub or frame, but not both. If the tub and frame were to go separate ways in a crash, you want the seats, restraints, and you, all going the same way as your cockpit. A cage makes that choice for you, where the seat and restraint mounts should be integral to secure you with the cage. If you do not have a cage, all the seat and restraint mounts can be tied into the fiberglass tub, with a cockpit subframe that secures you with the tub. You get to decide how safe the result will be.
Schorth, a German company was the only supplier of Street Legal 4(+) pt harnesses, when I purchased belts for my current build.
what makes these 4 point safe on the street? Same argument as before, the shoulder harness keeps you back and you can slide down under the dash without the leg belts. Help me with this one.....thanks!
I have watched your 67' project creep from the initial stock frame to the SRIII configuration with the LS drivetrain.
From your question about restraints, and your history of sweating the details, I thought you must be gathering interior ideas. Having a clean custom tub to work from offers you options that the stock frame and tub cannot offer.
If you have not selected seats, start with something comfortable that will hold you in (I have SCAT seats that fit very well, and are more comfortable than race seats). Think about seat mounting cross bars or a sub frame that incorporates a shared structure for the seat bolts and the belt anchors, and a harness bar, if you can follow the floor contour up the tub's sides to make something work without getting in your way . The seat and all restraint system mounts, should tie into the tub or frame, but not both. If the tub and frame were to go separate ways in a crash, you want the seats, restraints, and you, all going the same way as your cockpit. A cage makes that choice for you, where the seat and restraint mounts should be integral to secure you with the cage. If you do not have a cage, all the seat and restraint mounts can be tied into the fiberglass tub, with a cockpit subframe that secures you with the tub. You get to decide how safe the result will be.
Hey Brother, all kidding a side, you provide a perspective that exudes experience...And I appreciate that (not flippant). I am tired of spending money on this "last project", but I really do have a love for the C2 body style and hope to get this thing to a nice, but very driveable level. Heck, if I were to start over again I would send it to someone who builds period correct 60s race chassis and hope to fiddle in that arena once a year or so....but I am here now....I am thinking that, once i get it running I am going to find a shop that does 6 point sanctioned cages and get them to do it...any suggestions?...I hate the expense, but willing to consider......
what makes these 4 point safe on the street? Same argument as before, the shoulder harness keeps you back and you can slide down under the dash without the leg belts. Help me with this one.....thanks!
1stgear,
I stated whats required to makes those 4 point belts safer on the street, but that safer on the street does require anti-sub protection, not needed with Racing Seat belts if you use a 5 pt or 6pt restraint system.
Those extra seat belt attach points came about due to learning the hard way, that your body can sub under those seat belt unless you restrain the lower portion of body to prevent it. Then because your body is restrained upright, you need a Roll Bar to protect your head. Then they realized a roll bar without at least 2 more attach points can bend backwards or forwards, allowing your head to be to be more at risk again so 2 extra attach points where needed for protection in case of a roll over. Then as time went on 6 pt, 8 pt, side impact bars, full cages evolved, number of points required depends on type of racing, speed/time ect.
Re-Read or Read Point 2 of my original statement below.
2. Federal Law requires all 3 or 4 point seat belts used on the street to use Anti-Submarine Technology to prevent your body from sliding underneath seat belt in a collision.
Ever wonder why a 3 point seat belt system in a modern car allows your upper torso to move forward x - amount? That's too allow for locking you waist around center belt. A 4 point belt needs to use similar means to do this or you need to use 5th point belt on street also, to prevent your body from sliding under the lap belt in a collision.
Like my build.
I want to try to runs in the 10's in 1/4 mile. For car to be legal at NHRA/IHRA/NMCA events, car has to have at minimum 4 point Roll bar built to racing body(S) specs for material, design ,ect.
I also have to use a Seat (racing type) designed to prevent my head from going backwards over seat back and with means of restraint of the shoulder belt to prevent them from sliding off of seat back. Also have to have correct spec'ed padding material (no Home Depot pipe insulation wrap) on roll bar and so on.
But that anti-sub protection also means your upper body will only move forward "X" amount to allow upper body to move forward enough to lock your body around belt, before restrain system returns your upper body back against seat back.
Because your body returns back against the seat, rather than allowed to remain forward, you need at least a built to spec material and dia thickness for 4 or more Pt Roll Bar. In my case 4pt "Roll" is all that is require, but even with my Street Legal 4 pt belts, I must have and use a 5th or 6pt belt restrain when car is tracked.
Because I want to run 10s in 1/4 mi I'm also require to have both a trans shield (automatic) as well as Flex plate shield, driveshaft loop, etc safety equipment. I may never run the car more than once (looks like at build rate, Never...) LOL
Lot of effort/money not needed if built to just to drive car on street. Because car is a driver, more than racer, I'm using ASM designed 4pt belts so I don't have to hassle of needing to use the 5th point belt on the STREET. Also because of that RED Button with the word "RELEASE'' on it so it makes it easier for someone to extract me form car just in case.
PS: If you do a search, on the belts I'm using, you should come across a Video of them being crash tested.
Hope the above helped you. I myself like to do my on back-up research on things needed for car. I've still probably missed something Safety Wise.
Last edited by Poorhousenext; 07-22-2018 at 10:27 AM.
Hey Brother, all kidding a side, you provide a perspective that exudes experience...And I appreciate that (not flippant). I am tired of spending money on this "last project", but I really do have a love for the C2 body style and hope to get this thing to a nice, but very driveable level. Heck, if I were to start over again I would send it to someone who builds period correct 60s race chassis and hope to fiddle in that arena once a year or so....but I am here now....I am thinking that, once i get it running I am going to find a shop that does 6 point sanctioned cages and get them to do it...any suggestions?...I hate the expense, but willing to consider......
Your in AZ, so you might not want the expense of shipping car out of state to a shop, unless shop is close enough for you to deliver it to them.
What I did was talk to local racers, of all different racing types in area where I live to see who if not themselves built the cages in their cars/trucks, ect. Found a shop 120 miles away that had rep of being the best in area for building race cars to spec's need for class of racing car would be used for that was willing to work with me looks wise, yet be legal for type of racing I might be doing.
Your in AZ, so you might not want the expense of shipping car out of state to a shop, unless shop is close enough for you to deliver it to them.
What I did was talk to local racers, of all different racing types in area where I live to see who if not themselves built the cages in their cars/trucks, ect. Found a shop 120 miles away that had rep of being the best in area for building race cars to spec's need for class of racing car would be used for that was willing to work with me looks wise, yet be legal for type of racing I might be doing.
.
Wild Horse Pass Motorsports Park
20000 S Maricopa Rd Chandler, AZ 85226
There is a race date on July 28. Take a day & night out. Buy a ticket and walk the pits. If you see a corvette race car, or a car with local sponsorship, look at the cages and ask who they recommend. If you arrive early enough to see the Tech Inspectors qualifying cars, wait until they clear the cars and ask who they recommend from the local shops.
I am not a good spectator, so I may witness only a few races at events, but I enjoy walking the pits and talking to the racers and crews between races. There is so much new technology and fabrication expertise in the pits that I can spend most of the day just checking out new systems and techniques. A cold soda can buy you good will and a lot of information from people you have never met before a meet (bring a cooler with plastic bottles of non-alcoholic beverages on ice).
There is a race date on July 28. Take a day & night out. Buy a ticket and walk the pits. If you see a corvette race car, or a car with local sponsorship, look at the cages and ask who they recommend. If you arrive early enough to see the Tech Inspectors qualifying cars, wait until they clear the cars and ask who they recommend from the local shops.
I am not a good spectator, so I may witness only a few races at events, but I enjoy walking the pits and talking to the racers and crews between races. There is so much new technology and fabrication expertise in the pits that I can spend most of the day just checking out new systems and techniques. A cold soda can buy you good will and a lot of information from people you have never met before a meet (bring a cooler with plastic bottles of non-alcoholic beverages on ice).
Thanks felllas, I was a "crew chief" for a factory stock and then limited late model car back in "the '90s" (dont knock the "stock" part both cars modified) so I have some experience with those kinda cars and safety stuff and "NASCAR" inspections. It was a "NASCAR" sanctioned track in Tucson....they still race there....I also (sometimes) go to "Wild Horse" in Phoenix at times....a couple years ago I went to the 80th birthday for Bondarunt (however that is spelled)....(not that I know him, was just a relatively cool event...). Also, I was a drag racing buff in late '70s early '80s (loved Stock, Super Stock and Pro Stock back then)..and did bracket race my 440 Challenger R/T (NOM and not original R/T, but still cool)...so, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the information and perspective.
07-19-2018, 04:15 PM
