Help needed re Corvette collection
07-18-2018, 09:48 AM
#22
Le Mans Master
Mike, had you thought of contacting the folks at Legendary Motorcar Company? They're only about an hour and a half away up in Halton Hills and on your side of the border. They are in the business, but do handle collections and would certainly know the market over there, and over here as well.
Very sorry to hear you friend is wanting to sell his collection. Even a small collection like that takes time to acquire and no doubt means a lot to him.
Good luck... GUSTO
Very sorry to hear you friend is wanting to sell his collection. Even a small collection like that takes time to acquire and no doubt means a lot to him.
Good luck... GUSTO
07-18-2018, 10:28 AM
#23
Burning Brakes
Mike, had you thought of contacting the folks at Legendary Motorcar Company? They're only about an hour and a half away up in Halton Hills and on your side of the border. They are in the business, but do handle collections and would certainly know the market over there, and over here as well.
Very sorry to hear you friend is wanting to sell his collection. Even a small collection like that takes time to acquire and no doubt means a lot to him.
Good luck... GUSTO
Very sorry to hear you friend is wanting to sell his collection. Even a small collection like that takes time to acquire and no doubt means a lot to him.
Good luck... GUSTO
Let me mention something that we figured out long ago. As the cars came down the line, boxes of parts were placed next to the installer when the box they were using was almost empty. The fun fact is that different vendors for washers, screws, plates, wires, etc., etc., were used in all GM divisions. SO, it is certainly possible, and probably inevitable, that a given car will have "mismatched" somethings that a "judge" will call out. Not being on the line that day, who is to say what is original? I personally purchased new and then restored many years later a car that had at least 4 "mismatched" parts that had never been removed from the car until restoration. The explanation is simple: different box of parts from a different vendor are put on the same car as it was built.
I have nothing against judging, but get real. Those here who actually WORKED for Corvette or GM back in the day will be the first to tell you, I am sure, that all this plus more is true. (Ever pull up a carpet on an unmolested car to find "stray" parts under the carpet or underlay, to find pencil stubs, stray sheets of paper, and every other imaginable item somewhere in the car?) If not, you have never restored an unmolested GM car. SO, while I am sure that knowledge has increased at NCRS and Bloomington over the years, and it is possible to get gray phosphate, black phosphate, gold cad, etc., plating replaced on parts that have faded, who is to say whether the plating processes under modern EPA rules is the same as it was in the 1960's? Also, I would guess that in the Corvette world, over-restoring is the name of the game. Sure, you can get grease pencils in the same color and thickness as the originals, but are they the same chemical composition? Do the colored bands on the driveshaft match the EXACT colors of the originals?
See where I am going here? Experts add tremendous value to our hobby; just don't get carried away with it all. These cars were NOT built to be "show" cars; they were slapped together as fast as possible and shoved out the door. My NEW 1971 Corvette developed full length cracks along both body seams 3 weeks after I bought it. BIG ones that cracked the paint and left a bit of a gap. The windshield/top leaked so badly that a rain storm or a hose would put 3 inches of water in the foot wells in 5 minutes, and there was NOTHING that could be done about it. SO, Chevy gave me my $$ back after offering to take me to Charlotte and pick ANY other Corvette I wanted--mine was a 350 auto car--but I (some say stupidly) refused and ordered a 1-of 81 made '72 GS Stage 1 convertible instead. Chevy said that my car "was built on a Monday" or some such nonsense. Remember, I was in my early 20's and, like most young people back then, pretty stupid about dealing with business stuff.
Judging has its place, and the "correct washer" people are important, but we need to chill out a bit as these cars were built randomly when it came to parts, so having a 100/400 point car is nice, but probably not as perfect as one might assume. Having said that, I am sure someone can look at these cars and advise the owner what they are worth on the market today, if such a thing is possible. Hemmings has 510 C2 cars listed for sale TODAY, ranging in price from $600,000 to $5,500 for an engine only. Corvettes live in a very strange world!
Cheers!
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Roger Walling (07-19-2018)
07-18-2018, 10:40 AM
#24
Le Mans Master
Well said
Corvette people are no different from other brand experts, only they seem to be given to amazing pricing! My experience in knowing every washer and when it was made on the cars we do--GS Buicks--shows me that "experts" exist in every car brand. Since restoration costs are pretty much the same for all these cars--parts notwithstanding--it is funny to me that the idea of a "perfect" survivor car exists in every Corvette year so that it can be held up as the holy grail.
Let me mention something that we figured out long ago. As the cars came down the line, boxes of parts were placed next to the installer when the box they were using was almost empty. The fun fact is that different vendors for washers, screws, plates, wires, etc., etc., were used in all GM divisions. SO, it is certainly possible, and probably inevitable, that a given car will have "mismatched" somethings that a "judge" will call out. Not being on the line that day, who is to say what is original? I personally purchased new and then restored many years later a car that had at least 4 "mismatched" parts that had never been removed from the car until restoration. The explanation is simple: different box of parts from a different vendor are put on the same car as it was built.
I have nothing against judging, but get real. Those here who actually WORKED for Corvette or GM back in the day will be the first to tell you, I am sure, that all this plus more is true. (Ever pull up a carpet on an unmolested car to find "stray" parts under the carpet or underlay, to find pencil stubs, stray sheets of paper, and every other imaginable item somewhere in the car?) If not, you have never restored an unmolested GM car. SO, while I am sure that knowledge has increased at NCRS and Bloomington over the years, and it is possible to get gray phosphate, black phosphate, gold cad, etc., plating replaced on parts that have faded, who is to say whether the plating processes under modern EPA rules is the same as it was in the 1960's? Also, I would guess that in the Corvette world, over-restoring is the name of the game. Sure, you can get grease pencils in the same color and thickness as the originals, but are they the same chemical composition? Do the colored bands on the driveshaft match the EXACT colors of the originals?
See where I am going here? Experts add tremendous value to our hobby; just don't get carried away with it all. These cars were NOT built to be "show" cars; they were slapped together as fast as possible and shoved out the door. My NEW 1971 Corvette developed full length cracks along both body seams 3 weeks after I bought it. BIG ones that cracked the paint and left a bit of a gap. The windshield/top leaked so badly that a rain storm or a hose would put 3 inches of water in the foot wells in 5 minutes, and there was NOTHING that could be done about it. SO, Chevy gave me my $$ back after offering to take me to Charlotte and pick ANY other Corvette I wanted--mine was a 350 auto car--but I (some say stupidly) refused and ordered a 1-of 81 made '72 GS Stage 1 convertible instead. Chevy said that my car "was built on a Monday" or some such nonsense. Remember, I was in my early 20's and, like most young people back then, pretty stupid about dealing with business stuff.
Judging has its place, and the "correct washer" people are important, but we need to chill out a bit as these cars were built randomly when it came to parts, so having a 100/400 point car is nice, but probably not as perfect as one might assume. Having said that, I am sure someone can look at these cars and advise the owner what they are worth on the market today, if such a thing is possible. Hemmings has 510 C2 cars listed for sale TODAY, ranging in price from $600,000 to $5,500 for an engine only. Corvettes live in a very strange world!
Cheers!
Let me mention something that we figured out long ago. As the cars came down the line, boxes of parts were placed next to the installer when the box they were using was almost empty. The fun fact is that different vendors for washers, screws, plates, wires, etc., etc., were used in all GM divisions. SO, it is certainly possible, and probably inevitable, that a given car will have "mismatched" somethings that a "judge" will call out. Not being on the line that day, who is to say what is original? I personally purchased new and then restored many years later a car that had at least 4 "mismatched" parts that had never been removed from the car until restoration. The explanation is simple: different box of parts from a different vendor are put on the same car as it was built.
I have nothing against judging, but get real. Those here who actually WORKED for Corvette or GM back in the day will be the first to tell you, I am sure, that all this plus more is true. (Ever pull up a carpet on an unmolested car to find "stray" parts under the carpet or underlay, to find pencil stubs, stray sheets of paper, and every other imaginable item somewhere in the car?) If not, you have never restored an unmolested GM car. SO, while I am sure that knowledge has increased at NCRS and Bloomington over the years, and it is possible to get gray phosphate, black phosphate, gold cad, etc., plating replaced on parts that have faded, who is to say whether the plating processes under modern EPA rules is the same as it was in the 1960's? Also, I would guess that in the Corvette world, over-restoring is the name of the game. Sure, you can get grease pencils in the same color and thickness as the originals, but are they the same chemical composition? Do the colored bands on the driveshaft match the EXACT colors of the originals?
See where I am going here? Experts add tremendous value to our hobby; just don't get carried away with it all. These cars were NOT built to be "show" cars; they were slapped together as fast as possible and shoved out the door. My NEW 1971 Corvette developed full length cracks along both body seams 3 weeks after I bought it. BIG ones that cracked the paint and left a bit of a gap. The windshield/top leaked so badly that a rain storm or a hose would put 3 inches of water in the foot wells in 5 minutes, and there was NOTHING that could be done about it. SO, Chevy gave me my $$ back after offering to take me to Charlotte and pick ANY other Corvette I wanted--mine was a 350 auto car--but I (some say stupidly) refused and ordered a 1-of 81 made '72 GS Stage 1 convertible instead. Chevy said that my car "was built on a Monday" or some such nonsense. Remember, I was in my early 20's and, like most young people back then, pretty stupid about dealing with business stuff.
Judging has its place, and the "correct washer" people are important, but we need to chill out a bit as these cars were built randomly when it came to parts, so having a 100/400 point car is nice, but probably not as perfect as one might assume. Having said that, I am sure someone can look at these cars and advise the owner what they are worth on the market today, if such a thing is possible. Hemmings has 510 C2 cars listed for sale TODAY, ranging in price from $600,000 to $5,500 for an engine only. Corvettes live in a very strange world!
Cheers!
Another Buick / Corvette guy 😆
07-18-2018, 10:48 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
And we found all kinds of things...cigar butts, gum and candy were VERY popular, screws of all kinds, but NEVER a BOX like you did! Amazing find for a restorer, right?
We have a few old Buick line people on the Buick V8 board--you probably know this--and the stories they relate about the "line" are pretty cool to hear and tell us that all was not "perfect" when the cars were being built. Funny stuff!
07-18-2018, 01:04 PM
#26
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Corvette people are no different from other brand experts, only they seem to be given to amazing pricing! My experience in knowing every washer and when it was made on the cars we do--GS Buicks--shows me that "experts" exist in every car brand. Since restoration costs are pretty much the same for all these cars--parts notwithstanding--it is funny to me that the idea of a "perfect" survivor car exists in every Corvette year so that it can be held up as the holy grail.
Let me mention something that we figured out long ago. As the cars came down the line, boxes of parts were placed next to the installer when the box they were using was almost empty. The fun fact is that different vendors for washers, screws, plates, wires, etc., etc., were used in all GM divisions. SO, it is certainly possible, and probably inevitable, that a given car will have "mismatched" somethings that a "judge" will call out. Not being on the line that day, who is to say what is original? I personally purchased new and then restored many years later a car that had at least 4 "mismatched" parts that had never been removed from the car until restoration. The explanation is simple: different box of parts from a different vendor are put on the same car as it was built.
I have nothing against judging, but get real. Those here who actually WORKED for Corvette or GM back in the day will be the first to tell you, I am sure, that all this plus more is true. (Ever pull up a carpet on an unmolested car to find "stray" parts under the carpet or underlay, to find pencil stubs, stray sheets of paper, and every other imaginable item somewhere in the car?) If not, you have never restored an unmolested GM car. SO, while I am sure that knowledge has increased at NCRS and Bloomington over the years, and it is possible to get gray phosphate, black phosphate, gold cad, etc., plating replaced on parts that have faded, who is to say whether the plating processes under modern EPA rules is the same as it was in the 1960's? Also, I would guess that in the Corvette world, over-restoring is the name of the game. Sure, you can get grease pencils in the same color and thickness as the originals, but are they the same chemical composition? Do the colored bands on the driveshaft match the EXACT colors of the originals?
See where I am going here? Experts add tremendous value to our hobby; just don't get carried away with it all. These cars were NOT built to be "show" cars; they were slapped together as fast as possible and shoved out the door. My NEW 1971 Corvette developed full length cracks along both body seams 3 weeks after I bought it. BIG ones that cracked the paint and left a bit of a gap. The windshield/top leaked so badly that a rain storm or a hose would put 3 inches of water in the foot wells in 5 minutes, and there was NOTHING that could be done about it. SO, Chevy gave me my $$ back after offering to take me to Charlotte and pick ANY other Corvette I wanted--mine was a 350 auto car--but I (some say stupidly) refused and ordered a 1-of 81 made '72 GS Stage 1 convertible instead. Chevy said that my car "was built on a Monday" or some such nonsense. Remember, I was in my early 20's and, like most young people back then, pretty stupid about dealing with business stuff.
Judging has its place, and the "correct washer" people are important, but we need to chill out a bit as these cars were built randomly when it came to parts, so having a 100/400 point car is nice, but probably not as perfect as one might assume. Having said that, I am sure someone can look at these cars and advise the owner what they are worth on the market today, if such a thing is possible. Hemmings has 510 C2 cars listed for sale TODAY, ranging in price from $600,000 to $5,500 for an engine only. Corvettes live in a very strange world!
Cheers!
Let me mention something that we figured out long ago. As the cars came down the line, boxes of parts were placed next to the installer when the box they were using was almost empty. The fun fact is that different vendors for washers, screws, plates, wires, etc., etc., were used in all GM divisions. SO, it is certainly possible, and probably inevitable, that a given car will have "mismatched" somethings that a "judge" will call out. Not being on the line that day, who is to say what is original? I personally purchased new and then restored many years later a car that had at least 4 "mismatched" parts that had never been removed from the car until restoration. The explanation is simple: different box of parts from a different vendor are put on the same car as it was built.
I have nothing against judging, but get real. Those here who actually WORKED for Corvette or GM back in the day will be the first to tell you, I am sure, that all this plus more is true. (Ever pull up a carpet on an unmolested car to find "stray" parts under the carpet or underlay, to find pencil stubs, stray sheets of paper, and every other imaginable item somewhere in the car?) If not, you have never restored an unmolested GM car. SO, while I am sure that knowledge has increased at NCRS and Bloomington over the years, and it is possible to get gray phosphate, black phosphate, gold cad, etc., plating replaced on parts that have faded, who is to say whether the plating processes under modern EPA rules is the same as it was in the 1960's? Also, I would guess that in the Corvette world, over-restoring is the name of the game. Sure, you can get grease pencils in the same color and thickness as the originals, but are they the same chemical composition? Do the colored bands on the driveshaft match the EXACT colors of the originals?
See where I am going here? Experts add tremendous value to our hobby; just don't get carried away with it all. These cars were NOT built to be "show" cars; they were slapped together as fast as possible and shoved out the door. My NEW 1971 Corvette developed full length cracks along both body seams 3 weeks after I bought it. BIG ones that cracked the paint and left a bit of a gap. The windshield/top leaked so badly that a rain storm or a hose would put 3 inches of water in the foot wells in 5 minutes, and there was NOTHING that could be done about it. SO, Chevy gave me my $$ back after offering to take me to Charlotte and pick ANY other Corvette I wanted--mine was a 350 auto car--but I (some say stupidly) refused and ordered a 1-of 81 made '72 GS Stage 1 convertible instead. Chevy said that my car "was built on a Monday" or some such nonsense. Remember, I was in my early 20's and, like most young people back then, pretty stupid about dealing with business stuff.
Judging has its place, and the "correct washer" people are important, but we need to chill out a bit as these cars were built randomly when it came to parts, so having a 100/400 point car is nice, but probably not as perfect as one might assume. Having said that, I am sure someone can look at these cars and advise the owner what they are worth on the market today, if such a thing is possible. Hemmings has 510 C2 cars listed for sale TODAY, ranging in price from $600,000 to $5,500 for an engine only. Corvettes live in a very strange world!
Cheers!
However, I agree with the posters that say that the OP sounds a little in over his head. Corvette buyers ARE in fact a little nutty whether we like it or not and someone tasked with selling a collection of old Corvettes needs way more knowledge that someone telling him where the VIN plates are or in some instances, which cars don’t have VINs on their engines at all.
I think enlisting a general knowledge Corvette expert like provette67 is the absolute best course of action for the OP, rather than trying to piecemeal enough newly acquired knowledge to sell these cars. I know from personal experience whenever I venture into other marques how little I know about them when comparing that knowledge to what I know about Corvette specifics. The opposite is likely true here.
Get a Corvette guy involved to help you.
07-18-2018, 05:14 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
This sentiment is routinely brought up by some of our older members who worked on the line at Chevy in the early days and correctly point out that Corvette people are nuts with some of the perfections towards supposed accuracy expected of our old cars, when no one at the factory cared about any such correctness of potential certification. Point taken.
However, I agree with the posters that say that the OP sounds a little in over his head. Corvette buyers ARE in fact a little nutty whether we like it or not and someone tasked with selling a collection of old Corvettes needs way more knowledge that someone telling him where the VIN plates are or in some instances, which cars don’t have VINs on their engines at all.
I think enlisting a general knowledge Corvette expert like provette67 is the absolute best course of action for the OP, rather than trying to piecemeal enough newly acquired knowledge to sell these cars. I know from personal experience whenever I venture into other marques how little I know about them when comparing that knowledge to what I know about Corvette specifics. The opposite is likely true here.
Get a Corvette guy involved to help you.
Last edited by richopp; 07-18-2018 at 05:14 PM.
07-19-2018, 07:49 AM
#28
Team Owner
Member Since: May 2005
Location: Madison - just west of Huntsville AL
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OK, so actually trying to answer the OPs question...
1963 split window, 1966, 1967, 1969 & 1971
1963, 1966, 1967 - The VIN tag and Trim tags are both located on a steel under-dash structure on the passenger side commonly called the "Z bar" (because of the shape). The easiest way to see them is to open the passenger side door, then squat down and look underneath the passenger side dash. The 1963 VIN tag should be spot welded to the Z bar; the 1966 and 1967 VIN tags should be riveted to the Z bar with rosette rivets. The trim tags for all three cars should be riveted to the Z bar using standard pop rivets.
1969, 1971 - The VIN tag is location on the driver's side windshield pillar, towards the bottom, and is easily viewable by looking through the windshield. These VIN tags are attached with rosette rivets and the tags and the rivets are both painted semi-gloss black. The trim tags for both of these cars are in the forward door jam area of the driver's door. The trim tags "may" show evidence of paint on them, and they are attached with standard pop rivets. Open the driver's door, and look at the forward jam area near the top.
I do echo the sentiments of others that you seek out a qualified Corvette person to do an inspection of each car. Many of us will do this for no or little charge.
I know there are a number of NCRS Corvette types in the Ontario, Canada area, but I suspect a lot of them are at the NCRS national convention in Las Vegas this week.
By the way, take good close up pictures of each VIN and trim tags. They both contain a wealth of information.
1963 split window, 1966, 1967, 1969 & 1971
1963, 1966, 1967 - The VIN tag and Trim tags are both located on a steel under-dash structure on the passenger side commonly called the "Z bar" (because of the shape). The easiest way to see them is to open the passenger side door, then squat down and look underneath the passenger side dash. The 1963 VIN tag should be spot welded to the Z bar; the 1966 and 1967 VIN tags should be riveted to the Z bar with rosette rivets. The trim tags for all three cars should be riveted to the Z bar using standard pop rivets.
1969, 1971 - The VIN tag is location on the driver's side windshield pillar, towards the bottom, and is easily viewable by looking through the windshield. These VIN tags are attached with rosette rivets and the tags and the rivets are both painted semi-gloss black. The trim tags for both of these cars are in the forward door jam area of the driver's door. The trim tags "may" show evidence of paint on them, and they are attached with standard pop rivets. Open the driver's door, and look at the forward jam area near the top.
I do echo the sentiments of others that you seek out a qualified Corvette person to do an inspection of each car. Many of us will do this for no or little charge.
I know there are a number of NCRS Corvette types in the Ontario, Canada area, but I suspect a lot of them are at the NCRS national convention in Las Vegas this week.
By the way, take good close up pictures of each VIN and trim tags. They both contain a wealth of information.
07-19-2018, 08:12 AM
#29
Team Owner
People DID try to answer the OP's question - along with some sage advice....
I've seen about 1/2 dozen Corvette collections sold off by well-meaning friends of deceased owners.
Some did VERY well by the survivors - others; not so much...
rich5962 (a preeminent expert in NCRS restorations) sold off his passed friends collection for the family and did quite well.
Another individual whom I know tried to do the same thing for the family of a friend that had passed and got sucked in by "flippers" on a couple of cars; and they quickly came up again for sale for a heady profit - to the dismay of the owner's family...
Then there are a ghoulish types that know of a sickly owner and "hang out" befriending the soon-to-be widow/survivors and ****** up the car on the owner's demise at a fire sale price. (I can think of one example very recently).
To wit, unless the well-meaning family friend is steeped in Corvette lore, he better get some help -- or the final sales results may really affect a great relationship. A knowledgeable, dispassionate third party can objectively provide an assessment of each vehicle - a potential route for the best sale venue (private, auction, etc) and prevent hurt feelings or disasters.
I've seen about 1/2 dozen Corvette collections sold off by well-meaning friends of deceased owners.
Some did VERY well by the survivors - others; not so much...
rich5962 (a preeminent expert in NCRS restorations) sold off his passed friends collection for the family and did quite well.
Another individual whom I know tried to do the same thing for the family of a friend that had passed and got sucked in by "flippers" on a couple of cars; and they quickly came up again for sale for a heady profit - to the dismay of the owner's family...
Then there are a ghoulish types that know of a sickly owner and "hang out" befriending the soon-to-be widow/survivors and ****** up the car on the owner's demise at a fire sale price. (I can think of one example very recently).
To wit, unless the well-meaning family friend is steeped in Corvette lore, he better get some help -- or the final sales results may really affect a great relationship. A knowledgeable, dispassionate third party can objectively provide an assessment of each vehicle - a potential route for the best sale venue (private, auction, etc) and prevent hurt feelings or disasters.
07-19-2018, 12:27 PM
#30
Thanks fellows for ALL your suggestions, very appreciated.
I realize the importance of clarity when it comes to providing details of a car for sale. I too understand my lack of Corvette knowledge and certainly do not have the time to learn what the collective on this forum can provide.
Any "real" buyer will find a local expert, if they cannot see the car for themselves, to do a proper evaluation from the details I will be able to provide.
Thanks again for All your help,
Regards,
Mike
I realize the importance of clarity when it comes to providing details of a car for sale. I too understand my lack of Corvette knowledge and certainly do not have the time to learn what the collective on this forum can provide.
Any "real" buyer will find a local expert, if they cannot see the car for themselves, to do a proper evaluation from the details I will be able to provide.
Thanks again for All your help,
Regards,
Mike
07-19-2018, 01:31 PM
#31
Team Owner
Member Since: May 2005
Location: Madison - just west of Huntsville AL
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Thanks fellows for ALL your suggestions, very appreciated.
I realize the importance of clarity when it comes to providing details of a car for sale. I too understand my lack of Corvette knowledge and certainly do not have the time to learn what the collective on this forum can provide.
Any "real" buyer will find a local expert, if they cannot see the car for themselves, to do a proper evaluation from the details I will be able to provide.
Thanks again for All your help,
Regards,
Mike
I realize the importance of clarity when it comes to providing details of a car for sale. I too understand my lack of Corvette knowledge and certainly do not have the time to learn what the collective on this forum can provide.
Any "real" buyer will find a local expert, if they cannot see the car for themselves, to do a proper evaluation from the details I will be able to provide.
Thanks again for All your help,
Regards,
Mike
If I were a serious buyer, and heard this statement, I would bring my own expert, who would have already been instructed to pick the car I wanted apart, the run it down so I could get it for a bargain.
Seriously, I would not do this, but there are plenty of buyers who would.
You, and the owners, really need an independent assessment of the cars.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
07-19-2018, 03:09 PM
#32
@ jv04... thanks for your input.
The cars are what they are, the VIN's, data plate and trim tag information is what it is, there is no disguising any of these important details.
I want to present these cars in the best possible way, notwithstanding my lack of Corvette knowledge.
These cars will need to be seen first hand by either a buyer or a qualified representative of the buyer to assess the overall condition.
Photographs, although valuable, have their limitations.
I received a PM from a member of this forum, he lives in the area and indicated a willingness to assist, just waiting to connect,
Thanks again,
Mike
The cars are what they are, the VIN's, data plate and trim tag information is what it is, there is no disguising any of these important details.
I want to present these cars in the best possible way, notwithstanding my lack of Corvette knowledge.
These cars will need to be seen first hand by either a buyer or a qualified representative of the buyer to assess the overall condition.
Photographs, although valuable, have their limitations.
I received a PM from a member of this forum, he lives in the area and indicated a willingness to assist, just waiting to connect,
Thanks again,
Mike