How many believe Chevrolet is holding back on record for these old car?
#21
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Nowadays just about every well-run company will have a detailed document destruction policy. It's a crime to destroy documents to avoid a subpoena, but it's simply good practice to regularly destroy documents that you've determined have no value after x number of years. And it's also good practice to retain other documents in perpetuity.
But things were different in the '60s. I work in the insurance industry where it is common to need to find old policies and other documents to deal with current claims (typically for environmental or toxic tort cases). But companies generally didn't retain those documents very well, even if they were microfiched. Today there are people who call themselves "insurance archaeologists" who specialize in trying to re-create policies from various databases. I have worked with these folks and have gone so far as to have people asked in depositions about whether or not they could identify the signatures on reinsurance "slips" (these are handwritten documents where various underwriters subscribed to a particular reinsurance treaty, often at Lloyd's).
So, it doesn't surprise me that GM's records from the '50s, '60s and even early '70s are missing or incomplete. I doubt there was any nefarious intent behind this. It's just how it was.
But things were different in the '60s. I work in the insurance industry where it is common to need to find old policies and other documents to deal with current claims (typically for environmental or toxic tort cases). But companies generally didn't retain those documents very well, even if they were microfiched. Today there are people who call themselves "insurance archaeologists" who specialize in trying to re-create policies from various databases. I have worked with these folks and have gone so far as to have people asked in depositions about whether or not they could identify the signatures on reinsurance "slips" (these are handwritten documents where various underwriters subscribed to a particular reinsurance treaty, often at Lloyd's).
So, it doesn't surprise me that GM's records from the '50s, '60s and even early '70s are missing or incomplete. I doubt there was any nefarious intent behind this. It's just how it was.
#22
Drifting
This topic like the 67 big block hoods installed on small blocks is a dead horse beaten unmercifully. There was a member here a GM employee at the time who was tasked by Jim Perkins the then general manager of Chevrolet to scour the entire operation in search of these records in the US and the simple truth is they didn't exist.
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#23
Race Director
If GM had the information, they would make it available, because they could make money on it, and GM never misses a chance to make money!
Years ago there was a law suit filed against Pontiac because they were putting Chevy engines in their model similar to the Nova that through proceeds of the suit ended in for one thing the release of records to the public which created the Pontiac Historical Society (PHS) and I don't think that every would have come to be if it were not for that law suit forcing their hand.
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#24
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The government doesn't have my Dad's WWII records. His part of the alphabet was lost in a fire. Do I believe them? Yes I do. Do I think GM and Chevrolet are holding out and secretly still have Corvette records from 1953 to now? Not on a fit. Believe me I doubt anybody back then was concerned about what GM vehicles would become desirable and collectible so lets keep the records in a dedicated area so some day they can be used for future reference. Not likely.
#25
Race Director
no the records were not lost in a fire they were destroyed however. Jim Mattison of Pontiac Historical services can tell you the day, date and the woman`s name who signed the order to destroy Corvette records...
#26
Burning Brakes
I know that Chrysler still has IBM cards that you can order for 1967 model year up cars through Chrysler Historical. They are cards that were scanned onto microfiche and then photo copied to be sent to the customers that order them and they are blurry and hard to read. I would think there may also have been a hard copy of the build sheet or at least a copy of the original invoice that the dealer would have received a copy of prior to the arrival of the car to pay for the car from. They were filed by the corporate office. After a period of years they would be moved to storage in one of their massive building somewhere.
#27
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#28
Le Mans Master
Doesn't prove a thing if you believe Mr. Armstrong was lying. Which some here will.
You know that no one over at NCRS can be trusted........
You know that no one over at NCRS can be trusted........
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#29
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I see I made a mistake as the records are available for model years 67 and back rather than 67 forward, sorry.
#31
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With increasing liability related litigation in the 1970s, it was most often in a (any) companies best interest to not keep old records as they can be subpoenaed. If you don't have any, you cannot be compelled to produce any. You may ask what certain car option records may have to do with liability. Well, in most cases it wouldn't, but what is worrisome to a company is internal memos related to other things discussing defects and fixes, etc, may be buried in those records, so the whole enchilada gets tossed.
Ford Pinto gas tanks, anyone?
Doug
Ford Pinto gas tanks, anyone?
Doug
#33
Race Director
Many years back we had our Michigan Chapter meeting at Art's home and he gave a presentation on the issue. I was new to the Corvette world but Art left no doubt in my mind that the records no longer exist.
#34
Le Mans Master
The way that most of the auto manufacturers did it was the hand written dealer order form arrived at the GM office and it was input to the IBM computer and a punch card was created with the order number, model number, V.I.N. and options. When the car was scheduled for production that is when the build sheet was created at the assembly plant.
I know that Chrysler still has IBM cards that you can order for 1967 model year up cars through Chrysler Historical. They are cards that were scanned onto microfiche and then photo copied to be sent to the customers that order them and they are blurry and hard to read. I would think there may also have been a hard copy of the build sheet or at least a copy of the original invoice that the dealer would have received a copy of prior to the arrival of the car to pay for the car from. They were filed by the corporate office. After a period of years they would be moved to storage in one of their massive building somewhere.
I know that Chrysler still has IBM cards that you can order for 1967 model year up cars through Chrysler Historical. They are cards that were scanned onto microfiche and then photo copied to be sent to the customers that order them and they are blurry and hard to read. I would think there may also have been a hard copy of the build sheet or at least a copy of the original invoice that the dealer would have received a copy of prior to the arrival of the car to pay for the car from. They were filed by the corporate office. After a period of years they would be moved to storage in one of their massive building somewhere.
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#36
Just my two cents worth.
A little different angle on this subject. On August 12, 1953 General Motors' Hydra-Matic plant in Livonia, Michigan burned completely down, taking with it all engineering drawings and paper notices for engineering changes and releases. Also, all records for purchasing and shipping were also destroyed. It took GM many years to reproduce those records.
As a result of this fire, GM went to GM Photographic, a group within the GM Technical Center. They were instructed that all printed records from all GM plants and offices from that day forward were to be copied (microfiche) and sent to a secured climate controlled location in Nevada. This included all departments from engineering, sales, purchasing, accounting and plant engineering documents.
I worked for the real GM back in the 1960’s and had the pleasure of meeting and working with the group of people from GM photographic that traveled around the country and came to each assembly plant and microfiche each drawing and all engineering records including purchasing, sales documents and etc. Those microfiche reels were then sent to Nevada. A beautiful lady named Rose from Allen Park, Michigan was my contact. Just wish I could remember her last name.
The question remains, do those documents still exists today after GM’s bankruptcy and was the St Louis plant included? We will never know!
A little different angle on this subject. On August 12, 1953 General Motors' Hydra-Matic plant in Livonia, Michigan burned completely down, taking with it all engineering drawings and paper notices for engineering changes and releases. Also, all records for purchasing and shipping were also destroyed. It took GM many years to reproduce those records.
As a result of this fire, GM went to GM Photographic, a group within the GM Technical Center. They were instructed that all printed records from all GM plants and offices from that day forward were to be copied (microfiche) and sent to a secured climate controlled location in Nevada. This included all departments from engineering, sales, purchasing, accounting and plant engineering documents.
I worked for the real GM back in the 1960’s and had the pleasure of meeting and working with the group of people from GM photographic that traveled around the country and came to each assembly plant and microfiche each drawing and all engineering records including purchasing, sales documents and etc. Those microfiche reels were then sent to Nevada. A beautiful lady named Rose from Allen Park, Michigan was my contact. Just wish I could remember her last name.
The question remains, do those documents still exists today after GM’s bankruptcy and was the St Louis plant included? We will never know!
#37
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#38
Drifting
The way that most of the auto manufacturers did it was the hand written dealer order form arrived at the GM office and it was input to the IBM computer and a punch card was created with the order number, model number, V.I.N. and options. When the car was scheduled for production that is when the build sheet was created at the assembly plant.
I know that Chrysler still has IBM cards that you can order for 1967 model year up cars through Chrysler Historical. They are cards that were scanned onto microfiche and then photo copied to be sent to the customers that order them and they are blurry and hard to read. I would think there may also have been a hard copy of the build sheet or at least a copy of the original invoice that the dealer would have received a copy of prior to the arrival of the car to pay for the car from. They were filed by the corporate office. After a period of years they would be moved to storage in one of their massive building somewhere.
I know that Chrysler still has IBM cards that you can order for 1967 model year up cars through Chrysler Historical. They are cards that were scanned onto microfiche and then photo copied to be sent to the customers that order them and they are blurry and hard to read. I would think there may also have been a hard copy of the build sheet or at least a copy of the original invoice that the dealer would have received a copy of prior to the arrival of the car to pay for the car from. They were filed by the corporate office. After a period of years they would be moved to storage in one of their massive building somewhere.
In a very few cases, these cards have actually been found inside some cars, discarded by a line worker. If Chevy had saved all of them it reminds me of the last scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark. I agree with Glenn, that since GM has furnished so many other documents without fear of litigation, why would they hold back these earlier years (if they had them)?
Verne
#39
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There is no reason for a conspiracy to exist: General Motors Company (today's entity) has absolutely no reason hide anything that occurred during the many years that General Motors Corporation (yesteryear's entity) was in business. Two completely different firms. More critically, every single person who might have worked for GM in the 60's, including those who might have had some obscure reason to hide something, is either retired or dead.
If and its a huge 'IF' microfiches still exist, nobody knows that, or else they'd have spirited them away years ago and sold them for a fortune to the highest bidder (that bidder likely being a major used car dealer of some repute)....
Give it up and get back to the moon landing conspiracy.
Mike
If and its a huge 'IF' microfiches still exist, nobody knows that, or else they'd have spirited them away years ago and sold them for a fortune to the highest bidder (that bidder likely being a major used car dealer of some repute)....
Give it up and get back to the moon landing conspiracy.
Mike
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He said that even tho we only had to keep them 90 days, if we gave him something older than that he could look at it, and if he found a deficiency back then he could write us up, or even recommend a fine. He said "Now I'm going to visit the rest room, and when I come back I'll need to see your records." When he came back, he had exactly the amount of records we were required to have sitting on the desk, nothing more. He smiled and nodded approval.
As for Corvette records in particular, it's hard for some folks today to realize that back then these were just cars. Yes they had a following, but nobody dreamed there would be the interest and demand for all the tiny details which we have today. GM made them, sold them, cashed the check and moved on.