Randy G.

I mentioned here before that a guy I know picked up a 1962 which has been disassembled. 85% of it is in boxes and on a pallet, and everything needs to be restored. There was a title issue but that has been resolved. He is asking me to build it for him.

He wants an Art Morrison (or whatever) complete chassis package, modern drivetrain (LS engine/auto trans combo), pretty much a stock looking exterior except for 18" wheels up front and 20" in the rear. He wants blue tooth, Vintage Air, power steering, power brakes, new paint, new interior, stainless exhaust, rechromed everything, all new glass, soft top restored, etc. Because his business keeps him very busy I would probably never see him while it's being built.

His budget? While he can certainly afford a lot more, he wants to come in at $80,000. Six months ago he said $100,000. I told him that was a little optimistic to think it could be done for anywhere near that. Then there was the issue of how I would get paid. Flat fee? By the hour? At first he said 10% of the build budget. That's not happening. Most of the work I would do myself except for paint and body. One friend said just keep track of the hours and bill him for them. Another told me it will be a lot of work and I should just walk. He did tell me he talked to Scott Kendig, and I'm thinking if he got a quote from him that's why he's asking me to do it instead of Kendig. $$$

No doubt in my mind I can do it, so that's not a concern. In my experience in doing my own restorations especially on the 1954 time can eat you up. I have a labor figure in mind but I'm sure it would scare him off. I don't think it's worth the commitment unless it's absolutely worth my while to do it. And if it's not worth my time to do it I'm not all that interested.

Any thoughts?

Here it is sitting on a junk frame.

856666

From your post, It sounds like you would do the work for the right price?

Give him an estimate with a scope of work and a detailed cost breakdown so he knows your expectation.

If he gives you a lower number tell him no.

Phil

Crunch527

Nope...he has already indicated that he doesn’t want to pay you.

Drothgeb

Kindig’s builds are typically a couple hundred thousand or more, and his waiting list is years long. Comparatively speaking, you’d be a bargain at $100,000.

Best way to bill is to accurately track hours and cost and billed based on that. Sounds like you may have some problems getting paid, so I’d bill periodically and not let him fall behind.

FLYNAVY30

Nope....just based on his wants, and his budget, he's already unrealistic about it. He'd be far better off going out and finding one already complete. His build requirements are about as vanilla as pro touring cars come, shouldn't be terribly hard to find something that suites his tastes at one of the major auctions.

jim lockwood

Randy,

The way I see it, first ask yourself if the project interests you.

If NO, then walk away.

If YES, then insist on an escrow account and bill the account for time and material. Do nothing unless there are sufficient funds in the escrow account to cover what's next.

My $0.02....

Jim

Tonio

He is dreaming. Buying one already done would cost in the $150k range. Having one custom built today would cost nearly double.

I’d tell this guy that you’d be better off working at the burger joint for minimum wage than to take on his project.

corvetteed

Sounds like there are vastly different expectations on budget, and won't be resolved. The escrow account approach might work, but, then there is the hassle of notifications to keep it loaded. It all seems too complex and fraught with problems. I'd pass.

1Cerberus4u

Randy, its a math equation. Even having the car in its basic form, you can't do what he is asking of 100k in parts, let alone time.

Chassis, 20K, LS motor and trans 10-30k, paint 25k, roof 5k, chrome, 10k, on and on.... to do what he wants, parts alone will cost way over $100K,then labor.

Then think about doing the work solo... Factoid is just doing a basic build (no new chassis, no full take apart, re do and if you ask him how many hours he has just in that....

I'd figure doing a full tear down, restore, especially with mostly new parts is a 1500-2000 hour job, but someone in here like Mike C may have better handle on time..... so how much is your time worth and hr? Math Man's gotta eat...

ejboyd5

This will not end well for either party. Decline the work.

kellsdad

It has been my experience that many people are unfamiliar with written contracts and don't grasp that it is a legal requirement to DO something, not just TRY to do something. Don't be one of those people. If you can't agree on a process that is fair in the eyes of both parties, don't do it.

emccomas

This is really not rocket science.

It comes down to time and materials. Trying to do it any other way is a high risk gamble. You cannot accurately "fixed cost" this sort of effort. If you could, and you came in on budget and on time, your talents are wasted restoring old cars.

I am speculating that his budget is an attempt to get you to "fixed cost" the project. Don't do it.

If you want to be generous with your time, then spend 10 to 20 hours putting together a proposed schedule and cost estimate (I emphasize the word estimate) for him. Let the numbers fall where they fall.

Initially, do not assign a dollar value to your labor hours, just estimate the hours involved.

Once you have total estimated cost for parts, and total estimated number of hours, see where that falls within the "budget amount". That will determine customer's proposed labor rate. You can then decide if you an live with that rate.

Here is a made up example to show what I mean:

FYI: ALL OF THESE NUMBERS ARE MADE UP, AND DO NOT REFLECT AN ATTEMPT TO ACCURATELY ESTIMATE THIS OR ANY OTHER PROJECT!

Restomod of 1962 corvette Project Estimate

1. Estimated cost of parts - $65,000
2. Estimated number of labor hours - 1,000

Customer's project budget minus cost of parts = $80,000 - $65,000 = $15,000

Labor rate = Remainder of budgeted amount divided by number of hours - $15,000 / 1,000 hours = $15 per hour.

Would you do the work for $15 per hour labor rate.

And many I know that are in this business add a technical uncertainty factor of about 20% to cover things that come up that were not planned for (like undisclosed / hidden body damage and bad repairs that need to be redone. This gets added to both the parts cost and the number of hours

Parts cost with uncertainty factor = $65,000 + 20% of $65,000 = $78,000
Labor hours with uncertainty factor = 1,000 hours plus 20% of 1,000 hours = 1,200 hours

So now the deal looks like $80,000 - $78,000 = $2000 / 1200 hours = $1.67 per hour labor rate.

Now, if his budget increased to $100,000, you would get $100,000 - $78000 = $22,000 / 1200 hours = $18.34 per hour labor rate.

I am adding a project estimate that was done for a friend of mine for the restoration of a 62 Corvette to a nice driver quality. The shop doing the estimate was being generous on the labor rate (in my opinion)

This is just an additional piece of information, and I will NOT discuss any issues / questions about this estimate. Take it at face value, or not at all. There are reasons for these numbers that I cannot discuss, but they are accurate numbers.





And this is the car that the project was starting with. All of the major body work was complete, and the car was in gelcoat. All of the parts needed to put the car together were already with the car.

biggd

I'd run away from that job not just walk. Run Randy, run!

Frankie the Fink

I doubt somebody ready to plunk down nearly $100K on a toy is unfamiliar with contracts. Nearly everyone has bought a house or car and maybe financed one or both.

The "Iron Triangle" of project management is scope, schedule and cost.....you can change any two of those but not all three.




To wit, you can have it cheap and fast but not everything you want, or, you can get everything you want in a reduced time but not for the same price. I think you'll have a fit with this guy trying to change things mid-project and not liking what it does to your business model..

Its simple contract-wise: if you quote the guy a flat figure (plus a percentage for labor), e.g. a "firm-fixed" contract- the risk is on YOU to come in at those numbers and the work (scope) canNOT be changed. In most cases the client is charged a premium to compensate for the risk carried by the company....

If you do time and materials (as detailed above) then there is the chance that the client will change the scope (maybe a lot) and then it takes longer and maybe the client is unhappy about the extra time and money required (maybe he runs out of money)....but its less risk to the company...

Then I think about the fact this guy has already cut you 20% up front. And then secondly he prob has Kindig expectations on a Garage Squad budget.

One of the best definitions I've heard of being a business success is being able to look across the table at a guy who is being a jerk and refuse to do business with him because you don't have to have his money...

I've walked away from more than one 6-digit consulting gig for some of the same reasons and never regretted it once.

Its your call...

91DRM

On top of all this the guy’s name is Dave not Scott.

Dan Hampton

But...abiding by the terms can be a whole different animal. I would suggest that he shop the cost of this project to a facility that does this exclusively to determine a real world cost. That would also assist the OP in his determination as to what he might, then, charge.

Easy Rhino

Yet, some folks still tend to want to blur the boundary between a contract and "expectations" which are often couched in terms of "a man's word." This can be code for "I'm going to come after you later for failing to provide what I expected as we discussed" . . . aka "vibrations in air." If it's not in the contract, it's not enforceable. The boundary between "reasonable care," "standard practices," and "customer expectations" has kept many attorneys on nice extended vacations for many years.

A fellow I know very well just completed the build of a seven++ figure house and split un-amicably with the builder over "expectations" and "verbal orders" where neither party paid a lot of attention to the actual contract or to the plans or plans schedule, all avoidable.

Robert61

Seriously all of the major body work is done???

Black_Magic

Simple

How much do you want to make per hour (rate)? $2 - $10 - $ 25 - $50

Cost of parts + labor (hours * rate) = total Cost.

Friend of mine did a complete build and ended up making about $3 per hour on a fixed price (labor) deal. Hours ended up 50% more the estimated.

Get something in writing that covers unexpected problem & changes.

Don’t forget body work & paint job – could break the bank depending upon quality customer is expecting.

Good luck

BTW...I doubt it can be done for $100k --- at least $150 and up to $200k -- if the labor rate is around $50 per hour.

Frankie the Fink

Which was the whole point of my post. I’ve dealt with “project creep” my whole career.
The project was “shopped” with Kindig apparently and the guy got sticker shock.