CADbrian

A couple of weeks ago, I tried (unsuccessful, and am still disappointed about it) to purchase a 1967 L79 coupe whose owner told me "hadn't been driven in a couple of years". This concerned me because I've heard soooo many experienced people on this forum say, time after time, "you have to drive them" followed up with the reasonable insinuation that if you don't drive them occasionally they'll develop problems and issues like leaking seals, gaskets dry out, etc., etc.

Then a couple of days ago I was speaking with a guy who is also an NCRS judge who told me that (and I know I might get the specifics wrong here but stick with me for the generalities) he has had cars that were for judging and showing only (cars that had all the right stickers and markings in place) that while he's had them has only clocked a couple hundred miles (or some incredibly small number) during the decades (yes decades) that he has had them. I didn't challenge him about it, instead I questioned him about it because I think I can learn something from everyone, but I said (based on my presumption above that the cars have to be driven occasionally), "How can you have cars for that long and drive them so little? Don't they develop problems from not being operated occasionally?" In a calm and unapologetic manner he denied that the cars that he's had (in a desert climate) had developed "issues" from a lack of driving/being operated, and at least in part credited the use of AV gas to the lack of issues (fuel related issues) that he has experienced.


I guess I just don't get how both can be true. The dichotomy exemplified by the differing paragraphs above (if true) certainly generates questions:
1. How can both ends of the spectrum be true? It's not a rhetorical question. I really want to know how both can be true.
2. How many different types of cars (driver, show car, collectible/investment, NCRS/BG, etc.) are there, and how do you care for each type?
3. Do owners of collector cars and/or investment cars just not drive them and/or operate them? Is this in an effort to keep them clean and ready for show at any moment?
4. How do you "collect" a car (or have an investment car) and not drive/operate it often AND not develop problems?
5. Is the institution "if you don't drive them occasionally they'll develop problems" less of an truth and more of a myth?


I know the knowledge base in this forum can shed some light on these topics. Thanks in advance.

427/42566 coup

different strokes for different folks

Geralds57

What he said is true. I’ve done it myself, although not for decades. Any older vehicle if not driven, will eventually have problems. Biggest problems will be fuel or brake related. After you get one, don’t stress out over how often you get to drive it. It will be fine. Just relax and enjoy the ride.

Railroadman

I'd add "project car" to the categories!

I don't claim to have a complete answer for you, but I'd suggest there is probably a difference between parking a car in the family garage for 20 years and forgetting about it, and someone whose car only goes from the garage to the trailer to the show and back again.

First, that show car will be in tip-top shape because of what it's used for, whereas parking a car because it needs some repair the owner can't do right now usually puts it there "as-is". Secondly, the show car is constantly being looked at, inspected and analyzed, so if some small leak does develop, it will get taken care of right away. The stored car OTOH will just sit there, perhaps the gasket will dry out even more, then when it DOES hit the road you've got a bigger leak to deal with.

Again, that does not answer your whole question but I believe it's fairly accurate as far as it goes.

Nowhere Man

with dads three 67 that have tags ( body off NCRS restored and other never been apart) and my 66 Chevelle SS396 (body off restored) I drive my car every weekend that's nice at least 8 months out of the year and after ten years and 9K miles I have only had to do what I call normal maintenance. its reliable as any 50 year car could be. but its my only old car to drive. now for my dads cars, the first one we restored over 15 years ago only has about 3K miles on it its has it had it fair share of problems from sitting from a carb issue and one caliper leaking but other then that its reliable as a old car can be. the other restored car we done 5 years ago has less then 100 miles since completed but will start right up and I guess is reliable but we don't drive it enough to know. the other that's never been apart is like your grandmas old sewing machine I take across country tomorrow if I could.

65vette396

There is truth to both sides of this debate. if you are restoring a car to NCRS standards and are trying to achieve top awards, then you only drive it to keep the engine and trans lubricated, brakes free and not stuck, gas, water and oil circulated. Driving the car will contribute to the "new factory appearance" deteriorating very quickly. Nuts and bolts start to rust, dirt and road crap accumulates in hard to clean spots, and so on. If trying for the Duntov and PV, then you have to drive the car enough to make sure all items are functioning properly to pass the 200 item test. The NCRS guys encourage you to drive these cars. That's why they allow for extra points for cars "driven" to the judging event. I've had garage queens and drivers. But the fact is, a fully restored fresh restoration is only "standing tall" when it's finished. I always sold the car after it had reached the top and secured the awards that I wanted. I then let the next guy either drive it or take it back thru judging to get the awards under his name. Either way, I'm on to the next project.

As these cars age, problems will develop. Even new restorations where the car was totally taken apart will have issues. Driving them will bring to light the repairs needed. Sitting in the garage connected to a trickle charger like your NCRS judge stated won't identify any issues if not driven regularly. Most Corvette guys and small collectors only have a couple of cars so they will probably be driven (Sunday cruising, dinner out, or to local shows). The bigger collectors that have multiple cars can't drive them all so they sit. I have a collection of Civil War guns but I don't shoot them. You will get several differing opinions with this thread based on individual preferences and experience.

vettebuyer6369

Judging by some of the questions I’ve seen you ask, it seems you are looking for a short list of hard and fast rules you can follow in order to buy your first collector car, that will address all contingencies. I think you might be expecting too much; this hobby requires you to be a little more flexible.

I know it’s scary to buy an expensive toy for the first time and you want the experts to provide a clear roadmap. But, let’s understand that while A can be true, so can B.

Regarding your concern about the “myth” of the perils of a car not being driven, it’s all true. A car not driven at all can develop some issues from sitting: seals, lines, etc. Or, it might not, depending on geography and storage. However, this does not mean the car is no longer a candidate for purchase... it means you might have to go through the fuel system and some other stuff. This is not the end of the world.

On the flip side, a car that’s been driven might not have those problems, but it might still have other lingering mechanical issues that are particular to that specific car that have not been addressed. Maybe that’s why the seller is selling it. The fact that it’s been driven does not make it exempt from issues that you will have to tackle.

The moral of the story is, you are not guaranteed a problem free purchase because it’s been driven... or not. No matter what, the car is a 50+ year old antique that regardless of the amount of restoration, and probably will require a certain amount of sorting before you and the car get comfortable with one another.

If I can address your concern the most direct way possible, I’d say this: Determine what’s really important. Don’t pay original prices for NOMs. Don’t overlook hidden disasters like significant rust in the frame or cage. Don’t miss previous substantial body repairs because there’s recent paint. Dont miss problematic things like missing/improper VIN tags, horrible restamps or title issues. Understand that when you buy a car you might need to replace some old lines and brake parts or other stuff for safety or work through a list of other annoyances because... Corvette.

And, if you are very new at this and are uncomfortable about pulling the trigger, bring an experienced Corvette guy with you to view a prospective Corvette, even if it’s just for another set of uninvolved eyes. It always helps, even if you have been doing this awhile.

Bluestripe67

So the guy said his cars were for judging and showing. That equals many trailer trips, but does not equate to having NO problems in my way of thinking. Taking one of them for a long trip of 50-150 miles, not just a drive of of 10-30 miles may well shake out problems. Being NCRS cars, chips, nicks, and other blemishes are to be avoided at all cost. So the real road test of them will never materialize. Just drive the damn things and get on with life. Dennis

ChattanoogaJSB

You probably already know what kind of user you’re likely to be and I wouldn’t worry about how the other half lives (so to speak). Either way you are subject to issues once in a blue moon but regular inspection and maintenance makes them very reliable indeed.

As as far as issues with the car before you buy it- it’s a crap shoot mechanically what you will encounter on day 2. If the car has plainly been in service every week it’s probably going to give you less initial trouble and if it is recently and truly restored and has some shakedown mileage on it likewise it may give you less initial trouble but after that- it’s a crapshoot.

Good of luck in your search I’m excited for you!

Frankie the Fink

My split window pretty much sat in a garage in Ohio for 4 years....


When I got it the brakes needed overhauled (I did them)...
The clutch was stuck (a few tricks "unstuck" that in minutes)...,
It was blowing smoke, the valve seals were shot (member rich5962 changed those as I was working nutso hours at the time)...
The transmission side cover was leaking at the shifter forks (I fixed that)

So, it took about $950 to get the car roadworthy and the mechanicals sorted out....no big deal...

On the flip side a friend from California stayed at my house in Florida while he purchased a body-off restored '66 BB car from Roger's Corvette in FL, done by a highly-regarded restoration shop. A very well-known car around the area and IIRC had several "Flight" awards:




After it was at my house one day the A/C quit working and one of the 'real deal' knock off spinners came completely loose...

So there you have both ends of the spectrum - a nice, original car that sat up for a time and a fresh-off-the-rotisserie restored car and both exhibited issue (all quite manageable)..

So, if you want unicorns and rainbows in anything you purchase you're in the wrong hobby....

SWCDuke

Most gasoline vendors say pump gas has a nominal shelf life of about a year before gum and varnish can begin forming, and that's probably on the conservative side.

Lack of coolant circulation can cause localized corrosion mechanisms to form, particularly in the many little nooks and crannies of the cooling system, and aluminum components are particularly susceptible to this problem. Also, conventional glycol-based brake fluid absorbs moisture that causes internal corrosion, which will eventually cause brake fluid leaks and or brake system failure, so both coolant and brake fluid need to be changed on a time schedule.

Given the above and ASSUMING the car is normally kept in a non-condensing humidity environment, I recommend that the car be driven enough to consume a full tank of fuel per year, and that would nominally be about 250-300 miles for a vintage Corvette.

Coolant and brake fluid should be changed at least about every five years.

If cars are stored during the winter months, the fuel tank should be full and the brake fluid and coolant should not expire before the end of storage. Also, DO NOT start the engine unless you plan to DRIVE the car for at least 20 to 30 minutes. Don't just start it up and let it idle for 30 minutes... let it sleep until you're ready to drive it.

When driven, the trip should be long enough to allow everything to fully warm up and stay there for awhile.. say at least 20 minutes.

There are many frame-up restored "Top Flight" hanger queens that may have issues because they were never test driven enough to catch and correct all the bugs on what is basically a hand built car, so beware.

Duke

jimh_1962

Ever watch Jay Leno's Garage? I think this is true that you can enjoy your investment. Over the years, I have met the same type of people you mentioned who owns judged corvettes. To the extreme: One time, I happened to notice a small church had a small car show going on close to my home out in the country. There were two really nice cars (57 fuel injection bel air and a 58 fuelie red/red). I talked to the owner and his son who was my age about his two cars. He shared to me how much he paid for the 58 (120k). I asked him if lived far from the show since his son mentioned he would get the trailer over there soon to take the cars back home. He said he lived about 5 miles away. I was shocked! I asked him do you ever drive these two cars? Heck NO! These are investment cars... Well, I walked away and told myself its not my sort of car guys.

Now, fast forward to a month ago. My son and I were parked close to an original AC cobra at another show. He was talking to someone who asked him the value. He told them to guess. The person said 200k. The owner said "No, more like one million". The coolest thing was the person drove it away from the show. I happened to go the same direction and followed him out of town. Pretty cool!

As for me, I want to drive my corvette. Not show off. I just like driving it. It makes me smile. It reminds me of when I was a kid. Life is too short not to get out the most you can from your hobbies.

It sounds like the person you were talking to was strictly an investor. He wants to sell it but at the top of the market to someone who wants to own it like owning a piece of fine art. NCRS judging is a completely different type of hobby. I can see the desire to get recognition for your correct corvette. Heck, sometimes people put stickers in their corvettes duntov top flight winner and so forth. Its what they are into doing. I know my corvette is not ever going to get judged at Bloomington or some regional NCRS event. It might get judged at a local show because that to me is alright. Most of the time, its not really my concern. Just not what I am into doing. As far as sitting and not driving. Cars that sit neglected will deteriorate. Cars that sit and are kept up in a stable environment will stay nice.

Also, its puts me into perspective when I watch some Goodwood revival or FOS. Those people are racing very expensive race cars.

CADbrian

Here are the ways I envision using the car I'd like to find...

• I'd like to try my hand (together with my 13 year old son) at NCRS. I'd like to expose my son to NCRS. I think it'd be cool for my 13 year old son and I to center ourselves around this car spending time (with each other) taking the car to judging events, getting our punch list of things that we can do to move closer to top flight, spend the time (with each other) working on moving the car closer to top flight, etc.,
• Taking it to Corvette club [and having the coolest car in the club - of course, everyone thinks their Corvette is the coolest car there ],
• teaching my son how to drive a manual,
• I'd like to drive it occasionally to Corvette club, dinner with the wife, scenic drives, etc. - essentially a classic and iconic car that I get into with the sole purpose of forgetting about all other things and just enjoying the drive (where ever the destination is),

I guess, I want a car that can do NCRS events and be enjoyed/driven occasionally.


What kind of car is that?

Nowhere Man

first have you been to any type of NCRS event. while I love and enjoy judging events its not for everyone. it sounds like you want a freshly restored car that could be a NCRS top flight car with a little work. they are out there and should not be hard to find

CADbrian

I haven't yet been to any type of NCRS event. I have an eye for detail and think that I could find a hobby there.

I don't think I want a collector car or investment car that will diminish in value because it's driven occasionally. Yeah, I think you're right - a recently restored car with top flight potential sounds like a good fit. Thanks.

Nowhere Man

not every car restored to NCRS standards is a investment type car. most do it for a challenge and love of the hobby.

CorvetteMikeB

Car or Truck..... from the 1950"s-1980"s keeping to the 25 years or older rule to qualify for a " Historical Plate & Historical Car Insurance" in a "nut shell" you have 3 types of vehicles in this hobby.

A) Original...rebuilt parts....no upgrades
B) Resto-Mod....Huge range of restoration upgrades from $$$ to $$$$$ in this category......Basically old body gutted out/ all new modern upgrades.
C) Custom.....Combination of B with body modifications and interior modifications.

All your other questions are up to what you do with the "Hobby"

Powershift

You do not need a car to join NCRS National and Local Chapter. Go ahead and do both, and attend a chapter meeting and event. See some cars and establish relationships.

I belonged to NCRS National and Local Chapter about 3 years before I purchased my 1967 car. I attended meetings and also became an Observer Judge to learn what to look for on the car. Later became a Full Judge and began accumulating knowledge and points. Then I was able to help evaluate cars I looked at for purchase. Bought car, and learned even more. Later became a Master Judge.

Larry

SWCDuke

Assuming you can afford to buy a car that looks close to Top Flight, the first thing you should do is join NCRS and your local chapter and have it judged at a local chapter event to get a baseline on what you've got. Actually, you should join now and attend local chapter events and sign up as an "observer judge" while you look for a car. At one event you might be able to OJ with all five teams and will learn a lot. There are many good cars that are never advertised, but sell by word of mouth by NCRS guys.

Once you've selected a car buy the appropriate NCRS judging manuals, the AIM, all the requisite GM service manuals, and download the "vehicle information package" from the GM Heritage Web site. Actually you can do that now for any year that interests you, and study them.

It's great that you want to get your son involved. It seems so many young people nowadays have little or no interest in cars other than as transportation appliances. Growing up in the 50s and 60s I was fascinated by cars. I started working on them by about sixth grade. A driver's license and car was the ultimate freedom. I told my parents when I was 11 years old that I wanted a new Corvette when I was 16. They said if you earn the money you can buy one. So I went to work and bought a new SWC as a high school junior a few months before my 17th birthday. That would probably be tough for a kid, today.

A lot of guys knock NCRS because they aren't into the original "thing", but there are a lot of great people with extensive knowledge, and there are two new classes and awards for modified and customized cars. Sure, you'll always run into a few that you won't like, but that's true with any organization, and I certainly welcome younger new members, so there will be someone to carry the torch after all us old geezers are taking a dirt nap.

Duke

CADbrian

Cool, very cool. Good idea. I know that my son (who is only 13) can join NCRS, but can he (at his young age) ALSO request to be an OJ and begin to acquire some knowledge?

Thanks.