How do I determine what engine came in my 64 (since there's no engine info in the VIN for midyears)

Someone told me I'd have to cut a whole in the body to find a code on the frame. Where do I cut the whole? How big?

The tach redlines at 6500 (but that could have been changed).

Thanks,

:confused:

 

You left out important information, and I don't know how knowledgeable you are, so here are the basics:

Do you know if the engine in the car is the original engine?

If you are not sure the engine is original:

The engine has numbers stamped on a small "pad" that is an extension of the block (machined surface that mates to the head) so it sticks out about 3/4 inch in front of the head on the passenger side. That pad should have 2 strings of numbers stamped on it. Additionally, there are raised casting numbers on the rear of the block atop the shoulder ledge where the bellhousing attaches to the engine; a 7-digit part number on the driver side, a casting date code on the passenger side. Deciphering these numbers tells what the engine was... post them and one of us can decipher it for you.

If you know the engine is not original, there's no way I'm aware of to tell for certain which engine the car originally came from unless you can trace the owners back to the guy who bought it and he can find the original records (a highly unlikely scenario, of course). All you have is clues that could have been altered by prior owners, like the tach redline and possibly the differential ratio.

The frame is stamped atop the left frame rail, generally in the area above the left rear shock absorber mount. The area is difficult to access and may be rusty, but it may be possible to find the stamping by removing the wheel and cleaning the area and using a mirror and a flashlight to try to read any numbers revealed. It is the vehicle serial number, however, so it will not tell you what engine originally came in the car. When the car was new, the serial number stamped on the frame matched the serial derivative stamped on the engine pad and also the serial number embossed on the vehicle ID tag riveted under the passenger side dash... thus showing the frame, body, and engine belong together ("match").

 

So what you're telling me is that there's no way to tell what engine belongs in a midyear from the VIN or frame code? Only hints are tach & differential?

Since "matching number" engines are easily purchased (from hemmings, crane, etc), the only way to tell if you have a "matching number" midyear is if you have "original proof"?

If one had to change the VIN, frame code, AND engine pad numbers to make a "matching number" midyear it would require a frame off restoration and be prohibitively expensive. Since one doesn't a "matching number" midyear is only as expensive as the cost of the engine (and possibly tach).

What would you say, about $3,500?

Thanks for saving the body.
;)

 

Think twice about what you are proposing.

I'm not an expert in this arena, but I understand these cars can be (and have been) made into "matching numbers" cars by people bent on deceiving judges or buyers. The joke is that there are now several thousand more "original matching numbers big block" 67 Corvettes than Chevy ever built, because they were bringing such big prices in the 80's.

There is an ongoing argument between various camps in NCRS about whether a restamped engine should be allowed. To some, it is outright dishonesty, even if done purely for the enjoyment of the restorer, since inevitably some buyer down the line will be paying more, thinking he is getting an unmolested original car. Others say it is just restoration, no worse than many other things done to bring a Corvette back to the state it was in when it left the factory... does the car need to have the original air in the tires? After all, how much cleaning and retouching can you do to a Rembrandt painting before it ceases to be a Rembrandt, anyway?

I understand and sympathize with the arguments, but my take is that engine restamping is dishonest... it doesn't make the car run or look better, so why do it, if not to sucker some judge or some buyer for personal gain?

How about forging Duntov's name on your air cleaner so you can claim he signed your car, is that OK?

I was watching the O'Reilly Factor on TV a week or so back when he was interviewing a young woman who was part of a college scholastic team that won some prestigious award by besting other schools in a contest. Their professor (team advisor) had somehow gotten hold of the quiz questions in advance and had shared them with his team.. they had agreed to cheat by studying the questions. Subsequent to the contest the cheating was found out and the professor was suspended pending possible loss of his job. The young woman was unapologetic about the cheating, had no shame about it at all, said she thought anyone else would have done the same given the chance, and said she wouldn't hesitate to do it again. I suspect she'll cite that award in her future job resumes.

O'Reilly was very perplexed by her attitude, and I was, too, because this kind of thinking is all too pervasive in today's society... it leads to other stuff, like forging absentee ballots on Indian reservations in South Dakota because you want your party's Senate candidate to win. If you can make thousand-dollar bills that look just as good as the ones the US Mint makes, using the same serial numbers the Mint uses, is it then OK (legally, morally & ethically) to spend the bills you make?

It's a matter of integrity.

NCRS Judges, however, can be pretty good at spotting forgeries, and cars have histories that can come back to bite a forger, and it takes a lot more than just those 3 numbers to make a true "matching numbers" car. In NCRS judging, "numbers" extends to the configuration, markings, and finish on many, many parts, so to change the engine you not only have to find and stamp the correct part-numbered block, but it also has to have the correct casting date range and be fitted with similarly "correct" parts, like the manifolds, carburetor, distributor, coil, water & fuel pumps, alternator, correctly marked bellhousing, tranny, and differential, windshield etching, etc, etc, etc. The time and effort required to find and properly restore all that stuff may greatly exceed your $3500 estimate, but if only the engine stamping needs to be changed, then it certainly can be easily done.

But should it be done?

 

That's my point exactly.

There's way too much emphasis on "engine numbers" in the "matching number" equation.

It's too easy to make a "matching number midyear" out of a "fairly original but non-matching number midyear" - especially if it's due for an engine rebuild anyway.

In many cases all it takes is $3500 and an engine swap, because the rest of the drive train is pretty rock solid, and most owners don't care about (or want) 40 year old engine components in their daily drivers.

A true original should be judged by the number of original markings it posesses out of the total (and not by the numbers on the engine). In order to do this the "numbers matching" lexicon should be dropped in favor of a point system.

Until matching number designations carry a point designation, matching numbers means nothing without "original documentation".

 

You said:

A true original should be judged by the number of original markings it posesses out of the total (and not by the numbers on the engine). In order to do this the "numbers matching" lexicon should be dropped in favor of a point system.

Until matching number designations carry a point designation, matching numbers means nothing without "original documentation".

**************************************** **************************************** *****

Having never sought NCRS or Bloomington certifications, I'd have to think about those statements. I suspect NCRS has thought about it, and they've opted to maintain their standards.

The problem is, altering serial numbers on vehicles is illegal, I believe, in every state. There are many parts that fulfill the requirements for matching numbers, but there is only one engine, one frame, and one body that make a particular car original. So, although matching numbers may be a requirement for NCRS Top Flight certifications today, thereby increasing pressure on seekers of that certification to break the law by forging engine stampings, a point system would provide the same incentive unless the numbers are omitted completely from judging. And, while you seem to be suggesting a 2 out of 3 scheme, there is always going to be someone with 1 of 3 who will feel he needs to forge a number to get to 2 of 3 in order to gain certification.

Actually,I think judging the restoration quality (rather than the numbers) is the case today in "general" car shows where all breeds are welcomed, it's the Corvette organizations (and some clubs for other marques) that have the stringent originality requirements for their highest certifications.

There are plenty of beautiful restored or streetrod Corvettes without matching numbers that sell for more than matching-numbers cars in lesser condition, so numbers certainly isn't the ONLY criteria in determining value.

So what you suggest is a thought. But, the purists among us will still value cars with their original numbers above those without original numbers, all else being equal, so I'm not certain it accomplishes much, and thus this may not be a solvable problem.

IMHO, the real problem is not the NCRS and it's point system, it's the people who commit acts of dishonesty to take advantage of people who value a pristine completely original car... NCRS or no NCRS.

 

Allow me to jump in with my opinion, any mid year searching for top $ is going to have historical documentation paperwork to back it up. Generally speaking, if you want to check some things to determine whether there is a chance that your 64 was a high hp version, check the numbers and date codes on the transmission, the differential pumpkin, and the date code on the back of the tach to start with. If all of the dates match up with the build date of the car (including serial number on the trans), there is a good chance it was a high tach solid lifter engine optioned car. If any or all of these thiings have dates that either are way too early or after the car's build date, it has been messed with and there is absolutely nothing short of bona fide documentation to verify it's lineage. If you find the latter situation, your best bet as to value is to assume it was a base engine car.

 

Sounds like we're in agreement, but I want to take one last stab at this:

The problem with the "matching number" designation is that it only supports two possibilities - "matching" or "not matching" - when in reality things are much more complicated. There are a whole host of possibilities in between.
Therefore, the "numbers matching" designation needs to be extended to include a scale.

Yes, a car should be judged by the quality of the restoration. It should also be judged by the number of original markings it possesses out of the maximum possible. These markings should be weighted according to their value. For example, a matching number engine might be worth 10 points, a matching number transmission worth 5, and a matching number frame worth 30, and so on.

If this were the case then all midyears would be "matching number originals" but to different degees, and the incentive to fit the mold would be gone. For example, since my car doesn't have the original engine it might be a matching number 8 (because it's 80% original). Other midyear's that claim to be "matching number originals" might only be matching number 7's because they have newer bodies caused by accidents and are only 70% original, etc.)

I think this would stop a lot of the forgery, because all midyears would be matching number originals (to some degree) and the incentive to be one or the other would be eliminated.

In the meantime, "matching numbers" doesn't mean anything (without validated proof - - for every single number on the car).