It's difficult for a novice to know what to look for. That's why he posted his question. If you think you are giving facts or reasons why the number is fake and believe the forgers are reading these posts and getting new information, I believe they have forgotten more about stamping then most of us will ever know.

 

I don’t think I’d go as far as to say NCRS promotes fraud. If NCRS said tomorrow that they weren’t going to check numbers, I don’t think the value of an original engine (an engine thought if as being original) would lose their significant value overnight. Maybe it would, hard to say. Maybe over the years. Bloomington still certifies cars. Owner/collectors still verify numbers when they buy. I think we give NCRS too much credit. I think of them as the organization that judges restomods now, so I don’t see them as the Only Final Decider of what’s original or valuable.

Besides, any sort of fraud... documents, collectibles, of any kind... happens every day when collectors put value on them. The markings creating the fraud doesn’t make those items work any better either, so I don’t see that point. Collector value of any kind is arbitrary, not practical.

 

I didn't say that. I did say/imply the rules likely promote fraud.

More points = more dollars

Less points = less dollars

Same car.

It's that simple.

 

They judge restomods now. Glad I let my membership expire.

 

FWIW, this restamp/non-restamp thing seems to be mostly in the Corvette world,as far as people demanding/paying more for an original motor. Ferrari owners don't seem to care if it is the original engine, or not on older cars. I don't see the clamor about it on muscle cars as much, either, but maybe i just don't hang around people that care whether their Chevelle SS 396 has the original engine, or not. Most probably don't even want to know that their SS396 probably started life with a 327 or 283.

Doug

 

If the car has all the factory specified parts for that power train, what difference does it really make 55 years later?

After all, it's only supposed to resemble factory for maximum points, whether it is or it isn't.

 

It MIGHT provide some education / information to a wanna-be fraudster, or someone just jumping into the fraud world, but I can assure you that any experienced fraudster already knows all of the tricks of the trade. And you are not going to find that level of information on this forum. That sort of info is generally more appropriate / easier to find on the dark web and / or "grey" web pages (grey web pages are sort of like wanna-be dark web).

I am personally of the opinion that any information that can be used by a hobbyist / researcher to help determine if something is real or fake should be made available to the interested parties. Perhaps that sort of information is better communicated via private messages / emails.

I guess what I am saying is that you are not keeping information out of the hands of some unscrupulous individuals; they already know this stuff.

A matter of personal opinion I suppose. I am personally all for information sharing, even to the point of providing detailed information on how to detect (which also means how to make) fake information on engines, transmission, paperwork, etc.

So, along the lines of "if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it,does it make a sound", if a fake is so good that it cannot be detected by anyone in any way, is it really a fake? In order to be a fake, you have to be able to point to something specific that is not "right". What if you cannot do this?

OK, my 2 cents are over.

 

OK, a quiz for creating fakes....

Name the car part that is one of the most difficult to re-stamp properly to the point of being undetectable. Think of every part that has a number on it that gets checked. And I will make it a bit more simple, it is not a VIN or VIN derivative stamp.

An additional hint, this difficulty is present whether the part has already been stamped and the existing numbers need to be removed, or if the part has a virgin number pad. Obviously a virgin pad is easier to deal with, but the level of difficulty does not change much on this part.

 

The OP asked for opinions on THIS pad, but this post has veered way off the path from his original inquiry.
This is not a thread about NCRS, but understand the glasses (figuratively) i look through have NCRS lenses. I have had MANY friends on this forum PM me and ask me for my opinion on a pad or tag. Am happy to help save someone tens of thousands of dollars.
I hear your points, but you're making a huge assumption in your post. You're assuming that there is not even a scintilla of a chance that a National level NCRS 67 Judge knows possibly one little detail that a fraudster doesn't know. You assume the fraudsters know everything we do, AND MORE. That assumption is the weak point in your analysis. Do i think some fraudsters are very well at what they do? YES. Do i think they know a heck of lot about pads and tags? YES. Is there a 1% chance that a judge may know one detail that they don't? YES.
To the OP, sorry this post got sidetracked. I'm done here. ARA

 

I'll play. Any part that uses a roll stamp on a convex surface like distributor or starter motor. Or axle tube on a solid axle car.

Just a guess.

 

Fuel pumps.

 

Your point is well taken, and it is hard to argue (and I am not trying to) with any approach that helps to prevent fraud. The odds of preventing fraud are slim, but slim is better than none.

I stand better educated on this topic, thank you.

 

Mike;

You are on the right track. Starters and distributors are tough, but the real challenge is....alternators.

Alternators use the roll stamp (as you indicated) and apparently (if I understand this correctly) pressure is applied to the opposite side of the alternator case as it is being rolled over the numbers stamp. Someone jump in here and point me in the right direction if I have this wrong.

I know a professional restamper (is that a misnomer) that tried for years to restamp alternators. He finally gave up on restamping alternators FOR THE CORVETTE CROWD. The Chevelle, Camaro, etc. crowd are not quite as picky, and he engraves alternators for them. They are tickled to get a "numbers matching" alternator for their car.

 

But a correctly date stamped alternator case is actually not that expensive.

I let one get away from me at Carlisle for $20 a few years ago.

You just have to be patient enough during the search.

 

Depends on the alternator.

Find me a 1100697 alternator for a 1965 Corvette.

Or perhaps a 1100882 alternator for a 1969 Corvette. There is one 882 listed on Ebay right now for $949.00. That is actually cheap. I have seen them go for $1500 in the past.

Speaking of $1500, a 1970 1100884 alternator is listed on Ebay right now for that amount.

With some alternators, it is easy to find the correct part number, but the correct date code may be tough. Early dated 1100544 alternators come to mind.

With other alternators, just finding the correct part number is darn near impossible, like the 1965 vintage 1100697 I mentioned previously. I have seen one in 30 years that I knew was not a re-stamp. The others...well.

And it is not just Corvette alternators. Try finding a correct 1969 Z/28 alternator, a 1100837. I mean a real one, not a restamp.

It is like everything else. supply and demand dictate the price, and the availability of "reproduction parts".

 

The 2’s in the vin stamp look too light. Wouldn’t these be gang stamped so they should be similar depth? Not an expert, just an observation.

 

I don’t know why the very obvious flaw with this engine stamp is being treated as some kind of state secret. The vin characters are a different font size than what Chevy used. They are too big. Even though the picture is at an angle the vin numbers look both too tall and too fat (aspect ratio).

 

I don't know why there aren't pictures of the car here. The pad could be good and the car a pile of junk but nobody would notice if the pad was good.

 

If you have looked at a lot of stamped pads & have been to some of AL's seminars & NCRS ones you get a sense of what factory pads should look like. There are small differences in the #'s & spacing that cause one to think it's not a factory style stamp that is hard to articulate. Its like what the politician said about pornography. I cant tell you what it is but I know it when I see it.