When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I have worked with WAAAAAAAAY too many people with engineering degrees who cannot engineer their way out of a wet paper bag.
Conversely, ALLLLLLLLLLL the technically trained people and mechanics who have been through tech training schools and/or programs, could build the Empire State building, from scratch, if need be.
As a federal employee at Tinker AFB in Okla City, working on various aircraft programs, there were numerous times when airplane mechanics TRIED to tell engineers that certain parts and processes would not work. The engineer(s) INSISTED that it would work per the engineering drawings and instructions. It was nearly impossible to get it across to an omniscient engineer that it would not work----------------------------until you "took the engineer by the hand" so to speak, lead him out the the airplane and showed him it would not work. Then the engineer went "OH", and went back into his administrative work area, while the mechanic figured out what was necessary to make it work. THAT'S WHY FEDERALLY EMPLOYED ENGINEERS MAKE THE BIG BUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!
MANY, but not all, people with engineering degrees are WAAAAAAAAAY overrated!
Tom, you hit the nail on the head! I was a commercial building contractor for many years, and when the CAD ( computer assisted drafting) was in every architect’s and engineer’s office, I had way too many run ins with the “educated idiots” who drew something that couldn’t be built in the field. Drove me nuts! Too many computer jockeys with zero field experience or exposure became the norm. Glad those days are behind me!
I worked with an engineer many years ago. I said something about an L9 bolt and he had never heard of one. I said how did you get an ME and not know what an L9 bolt is. The last 18 years I worked was on jumbo jets as a machinist. A lot of times what we did was in the scope of the structural repair manual so we had instructions on what and how to do it. But more often than not our work was outside these parameters so we had to work under an Engineering Authorization. Almost never did an engineer tell us how to do our work because they were well aware that we did the work and knew how to do it. They would just say tell me how you want the EA written. We had very little trouble with Boeing and EAs but we did have issues with a foreign manufacturer. Very often we would work on an issue that might take 3 hours to do the actual repair but 3 days to get authorization and paper work to complete everything. I remember working with an ME when I made medical implants and tools. We often debated that it was warmer on the south side of the house than the north side. His argument was ambient temperature was constant and it indeed was not colder on the north side. I would always say well why do the pipes freeze on the north side first. This went on for quite some time and my work group enjoyed our banter.
I'm retired now, so I'm guessing nothing can come back and bite me for the following comments. But, so what if it does?
This is just one example of a true story. For 12yrs of my 26yr career at Tinker, I worked in the program office of the division that managed the VIP planes, including AF1. Administratively, I was the airframe/structural technician on the E4B (below).
ALL work, repairs, modifications for the E4 were done by contractors, such as Boeing, Rockwell, etc. Whenever an E4 flew to a contractor facility, the Air Force requested that 2 people from the program office be on board for any flights, including test flights, to/from the contractor facility. Flights could be 3 to 12hrs---------------------anywhere in the world. I ALWAYS VOLUNTEERED TO GO ON THE FLIGHTS, thus, I made many flights on the E4 and became privy to many things. The structural engineer on the E4 program (in the program office) that I worked closely with (well sorta) NEVER went on one flight. The purpose of someone from the program office being on the flights was to verify/validate what we (the US Govt) had paid millions of dollars to the contractor for the work that they did. Numerous times I asked my engineer if he was going to go on the flights. He did not go because the contractor(s) knew what to do------------------------------------well, guess what, it was not always right. Upon return, I would pass on the discrepancy to my engineer. He usually said he would talk to the contractor about it.
JEEEEEEEEEEEEESUS, what a worthless engineer on an Air Force national asset!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the first picture I'm on the far right, kneeling.
The second picture was my last flight on the E4 in the jump seat behind the pilot.
BEST JOB in my entire life!!!
I even got to make some air refueling flights (both day and night). That was as cool as it gets!
Cool.
When I was a kid we lived at Offutt AFB in NE. Used to watch “Looking Glass” (flying command post in the air 24/7/365 in case something happened) take off and land. KC 135 I believe was the planes they used. Lots of other awesome aircraft for a kid to look at always around.
Was raised by an Aerospace engineer, nuff said lol.
For those considering electric GM has electric crate motors for your older car.
Just dont think the experience would be the same. Killer torque sure but no sounds, smells...and listening to al the rattling lol
I believe it was the result of a contest among vehicle manufacturers to find out who can come up with the lamest idea. I’m okay with electric cars but really?
It is a lot worse than you think. I'm 69 and work part time at an Ace Hardware store. I have often encountered young men working on cars that do not have a clue about fasteners in general. Twice in the last 3 months I have advised using a grade 8 or class 10 bolt on flywheels only to see the advice ignored and the customer buy standard grade bolts because of cost. No concept of using a hardened bolt in engine, brake, steering or suspension applications. Quiet a few times I have waited on old and young customers who walk in and ask for a bolt, no sample or a photo to help. Then the interrogation begins. Fractional or metric? Customer responds with I don't know, what's fractional? The questions go from there. The big challenge is when a customer walks in and asks for some screws. What kind of screws are you looking for? Customer asks, there's more than one kind?
I understand your perspective and there is some validity to it. However, I would contend that if a young person were to direct his or focus to the task, I believe that they can learn the craft. I guess it really becomes a question of interest rather than capability. I think that the younger enthusiasts would rather get a 94 Supra than a 56 Vette. It's something that they can relate to.
I have two things to say. One is that not all engineers are dumb. I was an airline pilot for most of my adult life after escaping death in the Corps, and there were many things I saw that told me that the Boeing engineers had it right the first time. Through horrible mistakes by the line mechanics, Boeing had to make many fittings that were very curvy and had certain bends in them into fitting only one way because mechanics would unbend them and distort them so badly to make them fit because the part had the same fitting on either end. Two, it's not just the young that are abandoning these old cars, it's the shops and parts suppliers too. There are many shops now that won't even work on a carbureted engine let alone a 55 or 60-year-old car. I agree that YouTube is the saving grace for many of us who were not mechanics. I have always been a shade tree mech but not to the level of many on this forum. I built two AC Cobra kit cars but that is not the same as engine and transmission work. I appreciate all the knowledge that is here on this site and pray that you all continue to share it with the rest of us.
I have two things to say. One is that not all engineers are dumb. I was an airline pilot for most of my adult life after escaping death in the Corps, and there were many things I saw that told me that the Boeing engineers had it right the first time. Through horrible mistakes by the line mechanics, Boeing had to make many fittings that were very curvy and had certain bends in them into fitting only one way because mechanics would unbend them and distort them so badly to make them fit because the part had the same fitting on either end. Two, it's not just the young that are abandoning these old cars, it's the shops and parts suppliers too. There are many shops now that won't even work on a carbureted engine let alone a 55 or 60-year-old car. I agree that YouTube is the saving grace for many of us who were not mechanics. I have always been a shade tree mech but not to the level of many on this forum. I built two AC Cobra kit cars but that is not the same as engine and transmission work. I appreciate all the knowledge that is here on this site and pray that you all continue to share it with the rest of us.
I NEVER said, and I NEVER will say that all engineers are dumb.
But when employed by the Air Force as an engineering technician, and later in program management, I was often astounded by the lack of true engineering capability of some engineers. And by nature, I I'm a hands on mechanical type person. I have discovered over the years that I am intuitive enough, I can look at something, assess the situation, determine a course of action and get it done---------------------AND IT WORKS!!!!!!!!! So many engineers that I worked with just would not bother to get hands on involvement with the airplane platform they worked with. It was all sit at their desk and look at engineering paperwork (or computer work). I've posted pictures above of the E4B program I worked with for 12yrs, and I could NEVER get enough personal time on the plane, either on the ground or flying. And I'm still that way with the A26 we have restored for the past 22yrs. I do all the work on our cars (6), except some computer related stuff. I do home repairs, including replacing the hot water heater, some framing and structural and electrical work (my cousin and I completely wired the new building after the building inspector approved the structure).
My point is, how can someone with an engineering degree not want to be personally involved with whatever their engineering field is??????????? I have 2 boys that have their engineering PE and they are hard core hands on engineers. Actually, they are more like technicians/mechanics than engineer types--------------------------------------but they still come to their Daddy for help with auto mechanics issues.
I am an engineer (civil) working in the government sector. A few years ago I was promoted to supervisor. Because of my promotion I had a position to fill (mine), so I set about writing up screening criteria and interview questions but I had to have these all approved by Human Resources. I wanted someone with experience in our specialty, and I knew of at least two people that were interested, had the experience and had worked with us in the past. HR threw a fit at some of my criteria because I would be tossing out too many "qualified" candidates. I tried to explain that I set the qualifications and I preferred someone with a specific skill-set and experience. I only gave these experienced engineers about 10% in extra points.
So frustrating, I finally had to "dumb-down" my screening criteria, and then I needed to be sure to document all my hiring decisions...
Ironically, I had numerous people with Masters and Phd degrees that were just unbelievably stupid... Some couldn't answer basic questions about what our group does, even though there was a duty statement for everyone to read. A few even professed to having 20+ years of experience directly related to our field, yet when asked a semi-basic question, they gave a blank, deer-in-the-headlights stare, and were literally silent... I literally had a few recent college graduates that answered the questions better...
Regarding my "old car", I try to do everything myself. There are a few specialty things, and I am sure that as I grow older there will be more, but for me, a large part of owning a classic is actually working on it... call me crazy...
And if you're judging people's mechanical aptitude by what you see at the local Ace Hardware, you've really missed the boat as anyone building anything of quality is ordering made in America hardware from Grainger at a minimum, if not ARP.
Agreed! Ace is not the place like they say. Foreign hardware for your plumbing, not your Corvette at ridiculous prices. I buy all mine from a Navy surplus store. Nothing but the best and no foreign stuff. Hardware is sold by the pound! New head bolts from ARP. How many know about torque-to-yield bolts and just re-use them?
Engineering school teaches you the theory, about 60% of what you need., you learn the important other 40% in practice.
This is what happens when you turn loose a theory taught designer, with no practical experience on the world:
Just because you can draw it, doesn't mean it will work.
And yes, I am a degreed engineer. And I know my limitations.
Doug
Engineering school teaches you the theory, about 60% of what you need., you learn the important other 40% in practice.
This is what happens when you turn loose a theory taught designer, with no practical experience on the world:
Just because you can draw it, doesn't mean it will work.
And yes, I am a degreed engineer. And I know my limitations.
Doug
I believe Mr Escher would be proud to know his work lives on.
I'm actually counting on this....I retire from the Navy June 1st 2023...I start the welding program at the new UTI Austin campus that fall. I may also enroll in either the BMW or Porsche technician program after that. I plan to burn through my GI Bill taking whatever programs I can, learning as much as I can, then get a job I enjoy as the oldest new guy on the shop floor. I figure what I lack in time/experience I can more than make up for in work ethic, discipline, and attention to detail.
Good thinking for the future, but you forgot to add "move to Palo Alto, California, so Lou can get advice and free labor whenever his '67 needs work." Think about it!
I don't how this thread ended up talking about engineers but I wish it would stop.
As for my 57, I think that it will always be in demand.
I have two people that want it after they die, I hope they have to wait a long time!
I agree. There seems to something of a working man's hero vibe in this discussion and an almost complete lack of understanding of what engineers actually do. Engineers don't spend time (or shouldn't) with existing designs unless they are new to a discipline. They are there to "engineer" solutions to problems of existing designs or to design completely new products. A tech might know everything there is about a particular engine, but can that tech design a brand new engine from the ground up? Certainly not. That's what the engineer does. And it's usually not one engineer but a team of engineers who have to make a myriad of tradeoffs to meet all the competing demands driven by cost, timing, and quality.
Good thinking for the future, but you forgot to add "move to Palo Alto, California, so Lou can get advice and free labor whenever his '67 needs work." Think about it!
Tempting....I do love Palo Alto....except the part where its in California...
I actually considered getting out of the Navy years ago to transition into the Air National Guard to fly the combat search and rescue HH-60s. One of the units I talked to was there in Palo Alto at Moffett....the first question they ask you isnt "How much flight time do you have?", or "How many deployments have you done?" The primary vetting criteria is "How do you plan to live in Palo Alto on a part time Guard salary?" A valid question that pretty much sealed the deal on my Air Force transition...I imagine the flying around that area is gorgeous!!
11-17-2021, 07:34 PM
