C2 value escalation
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,368
Likes: 1,243
From: MI
2023 C2 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2022 C2 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2017 C2 of Year Finalist
Greg, you just spent four paragraphs (in post#49) denigrating those who don’t agree with your way of thinking, then have the audacity to say you can “Have this discussion all day without insulting another member”. Which is it?
Your credibility is non-existent.
Your credibility is non-existent.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,486
Likes: 473
From: New Jersey
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,368
Likes: 1,243
From: MI
2023 C2 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2022 C2 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2017 C2 of Year Finalist
As the OP, I’m going to ask the mods to close this thread, it was meant to invite vigorous discussion, not personal assaults.
Heel & Toe
Joined: Feb 2022
Posts: 23
Likes: 11
well, in fairness you did put “escalation” in the thread title.
I think those who are offering knowledgeable insights into cars on BaT are usually pretty easy to spot, and the rest of the comments can fall by the side if you’re looking to glean more about the car/C2 in general.
it’s a shame that there were disingenuous arguments made in this thread, as that doesn’t help anyone, stranger or friend.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,486
Likes: 473
From: New Jersey
Before the close, I'll sign up for Greg's position, 100%. Most but not all the self identified experts chiming in on every BaT C2 auctions simply want to announce to the world their vast knowledge of C2s. Roy is an exception as are a few others. The ones that really know speak the least. The ones that speak the most know the least. BaT has become like FB. Another place to type incessantly; lies, truths, and pure babble. Adults should be able to figure out for themselves what used car to buy, and what not to buy. If a mistake is made, adults learn from the experience and move on.
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 125
Likes: 78
From: Florida
Before the close, I'll sign up for Greg's position, 100%. Most but not all the self identified experts chiming in on every BaT C2 auctions simply want to announce to the world their vast knowledge of C2s. Roy is an exception as are a few others. The ones that really know speak the least. The ones that speak the most know the least. BaT has become like FB. Another place to type incessantly; lies, truths, and pure babble. Adults should be able to figure out for themselves what used car to buy, and what not to buy. If a mistake is made, adults learn from the experience and move on.
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 998
Likes: 387
From: Tyrone, GA
How about responding to any claims made by the seller that one finds fault with? That way you are not a nit-picker but an interested party trying to pin down an issue. If he claims it's a 66 when we all know it is a 65 then I believe it is appropriate to comment but not to say things that one sees wrong with the car if the seller has not claimed otherwise.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,486
Likes: 473
From: New Jersey
How about responding to any claims made by the seller that one finds fault with? That way you are not a nit-picker but an interested party trying to pin down an issue. If he claims it's a 66 when we all know it is a 65 then I believe it is appropriate to comment but not to say things that one sees wrong with the car if the seller has not claimed otherwise.
Even after he walked back the claim, he started an EBay auction where he AGAIN listed the car as having “the numbers matching engine under the hood”. When I called him on this in a direct message, he unabashedly admitted that it was a restamp. But left the verbiage in his EBay listing intact. He only changed the BAT listing because he had no choice; the comments were public and visible.
Thoughts?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,944
Likes: 1,112
From: Hereford AZ
As a multiple C2 owner I’m enjoying the recent value increases of my cars (though the only practical effect is to increase my insurance costs), driven, to a large extent by the huge dollar sales of some very questionable vehicles on BaT.
Philosophically, I have mixed feelings about this. Should I try to help BaT bidders comprehend the crap they’re buying, in the process getting shouted down by shills and unknowing cheerleaders, or should I ignore my conscience and join the legions of yes men raving about an early 63 fuelie SWC with a beautiful new trim tag, mis-located fuelie emblems, and a host of parts that don’t belong on an early 63 car? (Or any 63, for that matter).
It makes me wonder if we’re on the cusp of a new day, one where originality is so blurred by several new generation’s ignorance of these vehicles that no one knows what’s what, or cares. Maybe that’s inevitable, I should just laugh and go on with life…
Philosophically, I have mixed feelings about this. Should I try to help BaT bidders comprehend the crap they’re buying, in the process getting shouted down by shills and unknowing cheerleaders, or should I ignore my conscience and join the legions of yes men raving about an early 63 fuelie SWC with a beautiful new trim tag, mis-located fuelie emblems, and a host of parts that don’t belong on an early 63 car? (Or any 63, for that matter).
It makes me wonder if we’re on the cusp of a new day, one where originality is so blurred by several new generation’s ignorance of these vehicles that no one knows what’s what, or cares. Maybe that’s inevitable, I should just laugh and go on with life…
Instructor
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 200
Likes: 221
From: 805
2021 C2 of the Year Finalist - Modified
I have bought a few cars off BaT. I have also NOT bought a few cars off BaT b/c of the comments that were made. I researched some information that someone made in the comments section and found issues that made the cars not worth buying....very thankful that comments section exists. Yes there is a bunch of bad info on there but there is also good info in those discussions. It's up the buyer to sift through them. I think anyone buying or selling on BaT is aware of the comments section and understands before participation. I think it's really useful when the sellers aren't being completely up front about things.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 15,255
Likes: 2,252
From: NorCal
If the engine is as it came from factory the seller should say it in definitive terms like factory original or born with.
If it’s a restamp it should be so stated.
The term “matching numbers” by itself is meaningless and usually reason for doubt - at best,
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,486
Likes: 473
From: New Jersey
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 10,455
Likes: 8,109
From: San Antonio, TX/Mahopac, NY
2024 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Modified
2024 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2023 C7 of the Year Winner - Modified
Born with, oem, numbers match, date match, etc. are all progressively more obscure terms trying to form some relationship or even deceit towards having a prospective buyer pay extra for the car. If someone says their car in “numbers matching” and technically it is without declaring it was a restamp, but clearly a poorly done restamp most people (perhaps not all) will either lower their asking price or walk away wondering what other trickery awaits them.
The simple answer on BaT, given we are debating something completely out of our control, is to not click on the site. Easy peasy.
The simple answer on BaT, given we are debating something completely out of our control, is to not click on the site. Easy peasy.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,696
Likes: 3,084
From: Cottonwood AZ
C1 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Well there you've said it. "we all know.." Who are you to determine or declare what "is supposed to be" or what is "time honored tradition". Who says it's abuse of semantics?
I never say "numbers-matching" and others don't either. But apparently you do, in very limited circumstances. But I don't get to say how people can or cannot describe classic cars. What gives you the right to decide how others describe classic cars? Nothing does. Who are you to say who is trying to be deceptive and who isn't? Get down off your high horse for just a moment and think about whether or not it's your right, or your job to determine how anyone else but you engages in the hobby of classic corvettes.
I never say "numbers-matching" and others don't either. But apparently you do, in very limited circumstances. But I don't get to say how people can or cannot describe classic cars. What gives you the right to decide how others describe classic cars? Nothing does. Who are you to say who is trying to be deceptive and who isn't? Get down off your high horse for just a moment and think about whether or not it's your right, or your job to determine how anyone else but you engages in the hobby of classic corvettes.
if you have ever spent any time in a court of law you would understand how a term like “numbers matching” has come to be. In the legal world it is a car that has numbers matching on the title to the numbers on the drive train components REGARDLESS as to how well done they are or not. It is a get around to stating that it MAY or MAY NOT have the “born with” engine. So if you want to use a catch phrase use this one to identify an original engine as there is no denying what that means.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,696
Likes: 3,084
From: Cottonwood AZ
C1 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
I for one am not DEFENDING anything just rather the opposite and pointing out what you have to watch out for with these terms. For the uneducated buyer they can be fooled into thinking that a “numbers matching” described car can be an original drivetrain car. The term is commonly used today by dealers for sure. They use it to protect themselves from legal action down the road and in some cases rightfully so. They buy and sell cars that they may or may not know the real story about the car, may have a good enough re-stamp with correct casting numbers/dates to fool many and finally not all dealers are as smart as some think they are, but smart enough to know how to protect themselves legally.
Individuals use this term also for the same reasons. Some KNOW what they have and use it to protect themselves and some simply use it AGAIN to protect themselves because they may not be sure or have any PROOF of what the car actually is.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 21,334
Likes: 979
From: Various places in Southern California.
As others have noted, there is wiggle room in the term "numbers matching." That's one way lawyers keep themselves busy.
But, we should recognize that, even though "numbers matching" doesn't exactly mean "original to the car," it means more than just a matching number somewhere. I mean, if I write my VIN on my engine's valve cover with a grease pencil, I don't think anyone is going to say, "he wasn't lying when he said that's a 'numbers matching' car." Saying "numbers matching" carries at least some implied claim of originality or at least correctness.
Bottom line, though, is that the buyer has to perform his due diligence. The peanut gallery on BAT can be helpful, but it's still on the buyer to make the final decision and to live with it.
But, we should recognize that, even though "numbers matching" doesn't exactly mean "original to the car," it means more than just a matching number somewhere. I mean, if I write my VIN on my engine's valve cover with a grease pencil, I don't think anyone is going to say, "he wasn't lying when he said that's a 'numbers matching' car." Saying "numbers matching" carries at least some implied claim of originality or at least correctness.
Bottom line, though, is that the buyer has to perform his due diligence. The peanut gallery on BAT can be helpful, but it's still on the buyer to make the final decision and to live with it.